Is deduction important in BGA Hanabi?

[SonyaH]

I just had a bad experience playing Hanabi with a group of people who it turns out were using a convention of “when someone gives you a clue, they are generally telling you to play the left-most card marked by this clue.”

Now by moving Hanabi from board to on-line, it already removes the huge memory challenge. Memorizing the clues you’ve been given about your own cards is doable, but memorizing every clue that’s been given to every player (so that you know what they know and especially so that you don’t repeat a clue that’s already been given) is a mental-Herculean task.

With that gone, it leaves deduction: figuring out how much information each person has about what their cards are.

My question to the people who use the play-the-left-card convention, or other similar group conventions, do you still find there to be a lot of deduction in the game?

Does “playing from the left” get you through 90% of the game, turning it from a game of deduction to a game of luck-of-the-deal?

Or does the left-rule (or your chosen convention) just get you through the easy cases, and there’s still tons of deduction either in addition to the left-rule, or in cases when there’s nowhere to use the left rule? When you play, how often does the left-rule apply? Meaning, how often are you able to usefully mark a card for a teammate to play? Does your strategy become _whose_ card do you mark when there’re several teammates whose cards you could mark with the left-rule? Does it end up mattering much whose you mark (other than just marking whoever is next or whoever doesn’t have info yet)?

[tchobello]

Hi SonyaH

You are talking about finesse (and also bluff).

Finesse is based on deduction and timing and helps you saving clues.
For instance, 12Blue is on the table and somebody gives a 4 clue on a 4Blue.
That means someone has the 3Blue (deduction).
That means someone newest card is a 3Blue (timing).
In BGA, newest cards are on the left.

Imagine 12Blue on the table and player D has 4Blue
Finesse can be direct :
A gives 4 clue to D means B or C has to play his leftmost card.
B
C
D

It's not as easy as it seems because if B has a 3 or a Blue already marked, it prevails.

This time, Player B has 4Blue
Finesse can be reversed :
A gives Blue clue to B means C or D has to play his leftmost card. B has to wait next turn before playing his blue card.
B
C
D

Another case : the self finesse.
12Blue on the table, Player B has 4Blue
A gives 4 clue to B but neither C nor D has a playable card leftmost. That means B has to play his leftmost card !
B
C
D

Another example
Imagine 12Blue on the table and player D has 4Blue
A gives 4 clue to D means B or C has to play his leftmost card. C has nothing so B plays and reveals a playable 1R ! That's called Bluff.
B
C
D
Bluff is more specific as the player concerned is the one just after you. Reverse or delayed bluff rarely works.

It takes time to learn how to use finesse and bluff efficiently.
Most of all, Hanabi is based on timing and many players focus too much on finesses and talk about bad luck if they failed to save a 2 and draw the other 2 in the last 2 cards...

[janosimas]

For instance, 12Blue is on the table and somebody gives a 4 clue on a 4Blue.
That means someone has the 3Blue (deduction).

That is not fair deduction. Deduction is the inference of particular instances by reference to a general law or principle.
In Hanabi "normal" game, you could think "There are only one 4 in each color, this is a 4 therefore (deduction) I can't discard this."
In "convention" Hanabi, "This is a 4, we AGREED to mark a 4 when another person has a 3 of the SAME color, therefore (deduction based on convention) I know this is BLUE"

A gives 4 clue to D means B or C has to play his leftmost card. C has nothing so B plays and reveals a playable 1R ! That's called Bluff.

Bluff is to pretense that your position is stronger than it really is, as faking a better hand with a high bet in poker.
I have no idea why you call that a bluff.

Sorry about being rude but I think Hanabi "conventions" as cheating,
I almost don't play Hanabi in BGA because of that.

[qpenguin]

For instance, 12Blue is on the table and somebody gives a 4 clue on a 4Blue.
That means someone has the 3Blue (deduction).

That is not fair deduction. Deduction is the inference of particular instances by reference to a general law or principle.
In Hanabi "normal" game, you could think "There are only one 4 in each color, this is a 4 therefore (deduction) I can't discard this."
In "convention" Hanabi, "This is a 4, we AGREED to mark a 4 when another person has a 3 of the SAME color, therefore (deduction based on convention) I know this is BLUE"

The person is not at risk of discarding the 4 if it's not on the chop card. So the question is: why did the player before me give him clue 4 at this very moment? It would be a potential waste of clue token if the card were to be saved early in the hand. Therefore there had to be a better reason. That's why timing is very important aspect for deduction in the game.

Bluff is to pretense that your position is stronger than it really is, as faking a better hand with a high bet in poker.
I have no idea why you call that a bluff.

That's the definition of the terminology used for playing poker. Different games can share a same terminology but has different meanings.

[ollyfish2002]

Hello
Play left-discard right is not a convention. It is the way cards are sorted in your hand in BGA. That is why timing is important.
When two or more cards are clued together, ask yourself : why now? Because earlier, the oldest of these cards was not playable, that all.
This is pure deduction.
You should not apply this without thinking, sometimes it is not logical to play left (due to the game), ask Beri and his LogicalLeft group.
I now used this way of sorting in real play and turn upside down clued cards.
In few games, other players deduce that i will discard my oldest card unless it is upside down (from my side), just by looking at the way I play, without any words: Is this convention ? They see
Other players need to know what is your chop cards in order to save last cards. If you discard random unclued cards, score won't go very high.
That is the aim of this game : perfect score, no ?

my 2p.

[Arthur Sp]

Sanya H say it right.
IRL, i play without talking or explaining how i play and people finally understand strategy and what is the most logic.

What could be cheating here on BGA is explaining this as a convention.
I tried AenarionJD convention, http://forum.boardgamearena.com/viewtop ... ial#p20798
and this i find it cheating, quickly not fun, so i don't play it anymore.

To come back on goassesdor, it is logical to understand the finess when there is no 4 to play or save and the guys after me is being clued "4" or just the color of this 4, I have to got the missing 3 to complete the chain. And if it is clued only now, it must be because i just picked it. Now you know finess, you'll pay attention to leftmost cards of others.
That's how it can lead to reverse finess and bluff.
Example on bluff:
I just pick playable green 2, The guys before me clue the guys after me he's not playable blue 3: "Blue" . Blue 2 is needed. So i think i have it and play my new card. Since it's not the same color, player after me will undertood i was bluffed and will not bomb. We call it bluff because someone made me think i had a card i didn't.