Quoridor: change the number of walls

[tomoyuki]

Dear All!

I believe that in the game Quorridor, the first player wins the game with optimal play. Moreover, the game with 10 walls is so well analyzed that i find it increasingly difficult to try something with black against masters. While for a long time now, i have won all my white games.
I think that the (by far) most interesting opening (interesting = difficult, unbalanced) is when pushing the pawn by white is answered by placing a vertical wall (at the first move). Unfortunately it seems that this opening results with the second player having much less walls. And as a result, this opening choice with black seems to enlargen white's advantage.
I suggest that the number of walls should be changed to 12. In this way, the above-mentioned opening would gain in strength (because extra walls would make the shortage in walls less disadvantageous) which would make the game more interesting.
(I should add that i didn't test the game with 12 walls, but as number one player i think i understand the game well enough to judge that it would be more interesting with slightly more walls.)

tomoyuki

[pikiou]

If the game so happens to be better with 12 walls rather than 10 and we make that change on BGA, the game will be better on BGA rather than in real life. Since on BGA we promote real life board games and that'd go against it, it's just not possible.
I wanted to do that for Quantum and even asked the editor, but I knew the answer already and was proven right.
If you want to play the game with different rules, you have to buy it (or twice, in this case...) Freedom of rule changes is one of the beauties of real life board games ^^

[tomoyuki]

Thx for the answer, that makes sense. I will buy the game anyway to analyze positions. In BGA i didn't see a way to analyze your game making the moves on the board.

[Oso]

Yes, it's a pity.

BGA should has a "Balanced" system for this game. (like Puerto Rico)

[Jest Phulin]

The "balanced" variant on Puerto Rico is an official variant from the game designer. (I'll let you Google the references for that.) It is not something that members of BGA created.

BGA has a strict policy of maintaining the official rules, which is needed for the licenses they acquire.

[ptero101]

If you want to play the game with different rules, you have to buy it (or twice, in this case...) Freedom of rule changes is one of the beauties of real life board games ^^

Firstly, thanks for developing the online implementation, and I do appreciate the reasons for the answer...only problem is I own the board game, and any friends or family refuse to play me at such a game as this as they don't like being always thrashed, and that was before I got quite good on bga. Only place I can get a decent game is on here. So the argument that it shouldn't be better on here than in real life isn't quite credible for me - it is 100 times better here already because of the available opponents.

I believe that in the game Quoridor, the first player wins the game with optimal play. Moreover, the game with 10 walls is so well analyzed that i find it increasingly difficult to try something with black against masters. I suggest that the number of walls should be changed to 12.
tomoyuki

Yes, I also have a much better record as first player, though I can't find anything above anecdotal comment to support that it might be a win for p1 with optimal play. In regards to increasing the number of walls. Interestingly, according to boardgamegeek, Quoridor is a re-implementation of Pinko Pallino (1995), also by Mirko Marchesi which has 21 walls for each side on a 11-11 board...so it originally had more walls. Pinko Pallino was a re-implementation of Blockade (1975), again by Mirko, which had 18 walls on a 11-14 board. Maybe they could be developed to be part of the BGA premium catalog. Quoridor was far higher rated than its predecessors though - it would be interesting to know Mirko's thoughts on nailing it after 20 years with Quoridor.

My own pet area of interest is that to make something like Quoridor a game at which we can still beat the best (potential) AI, is that every game or tournament would have little variations in the rules, which the AI would struggle to cope with, and by the same token would not become too well analysed and the best players would be kept challenged. So you might have a series of tournaments with small small variations in the rules each time - 2 extra walls, a different mix of lengths of walls, different shaped walls, different shaped boards, some walls placed on the board at the start of the game, 1 wall hop allowed per game - small small small variations - just enough to disrupt the standard opening theories, and make people have to think on their feet...

Could the game designer be persuaded...well these things can be very difficult to monetise I know - the majority of the players on bga seem to be adequately challenged by the basic game rules of Quoridor, so in the short term you may not get very many subscribers (for what would be a premium service). If you want Quoridor to get big at the serious end though, to rival chess / go etc (have a world championship which doesn't just get won by the player starting first), then having a library of small variations could achieve that ,and it is for me a more naturally intuitive and accessible game than chess or go, so I do think it has some potential (ok, it's only a dream i know).

[veme]

Since on BGA we promote real life board games and that'd go against it, it's just not possible.

BGA has a strict policy of maintaining the official rules, which is needed for the licenses they acquire.

Except for in Takenoko, of course, even when they have had the major rules error pointed out to them in a bug report and on the forums: http://en.boardgamearena.com/#!bug?id=576. The admins refuse to change this game to follow the official rules, for reasons that remain unexplained.

It's too bad for you that they didn't make a mistake and accidentally give Quoridor 12 walls to begin with, if so they would probably resist changing it to 10...

[ollyfish2002]

Ask Stone Age players for starvation strategy !
Not a bug.

[ollyfish2002]

Hello
Just to go a bit further on Quoridor.
I think 10 fences is the way game was designed and this should stay the "classic" way to play, even if you think first player has an advantage. Personaly losing against players starting second show me I am not a good player.
Maybe, master players can clarify if playing first is an advantage. For me it is sure that it change the strategy.
For random fences, I have an android game called "Zabor" which is a quoridor-like game. It has a option to play with randomly placed fences taken from the 20 walls.
It is terrible, random fences could be worst than playing second and surely can make you think differently.
So, I agree it could be a option added to the game for those who want to introduce "luck" in the game, but luck for which player ?
my 2p.

[senatorhung]

Since on BGA we promote real life board games and that'd go against it, it's just not possible.

BGA has a strict policy of maintaining the official rules, which is needed for the licenses they acquire.

Except for in Takenoko, of course, even when they have had the major rules error pointed out to them in a bug report and on the forums: http://en.boardgamearena.com/#!bug?id=576. The admins refuse to change this game to follow the official rules, for reasons that remain unexplained.

BGA implemented the official rules that existed at the time they licensed it. i happen to agree with Silene that it adds tactical depth to a game that otherwise becomes much more about random luck of the draw. if the game designers changed the rules after ? fine for them, but the devs here implemented it as licensed.

the only other incidence that i'm aware of was Noir: Inspector v. Killer where the rules used by the game dev on BGA were not the rules that the game shipped with. but the game designer has let the game here stand since it reflected the rules that the dev had to work with. it makes that game broken, but the devs were able to find a meta.workaround to avoid the worst abuses.

same thing with Through the Ages. a more recent variant rule set exists now, but TtA on BGA is still implemented as per the original license. the changes may make the game play a bit better, but the current version on BGA still works.

takenoko as implemented ? not broken. plenty of active players. give up your pointless crusade.

EDIT: or, if you become a dev ... you can see if you can code up an official variant. but that's what it would be .. a variant.