Don't join fast games if you aren't fast!

[Vianebula]

A simple point here: if you are not a fast player or your connection is slow, DO NOT join my table if it is set to fast!

I have had three players time out today.

If you time out on my table, I'll skip you! Be warned. No red thumbs in retribution!

If you don't want to play with me then mark me down as someone to avoid. I am lightning fast in Seasons, and I expect likewise!

Cheers!

[Liallan]

Just wondering what percent of the people who take your invites actually read the forums and would see this.....

You also might want to accept that problems with internet are not necessarily slow connections. Sometimes stuff just happens, not to mention that sometimes this site can be seriously flakey. Like it's been flakey this evening, and when I went to mark you as being far too hard core to ever play with, it kept asking if I was connected, despite that my internet is fine everywhere else. By the time I was able to save my comment, you would have already skipped over me.

[makkuu]

1. You can't demand anything, you enforce it through the implemented system automatically. There's a time limit - that's it.
2. It's fine to use the implemented system to kick a player who can't keep up within the time limit. It's their fault.
3. It's not okay that people can thumb down you for doing nothing wrong. That's why I think every thumb down should require specification of reason with multiple choice and one open answer option. Then admins should be able to look into thumb downs and conclude if they are reasonable or not. And if not - then actually punish the person who thumb downed without good reason (just out of rage).

The last point is very important. It's fortunate that the boardgaming community is pretty mature, but you can't rely on that. In general, if you just have thumb down option with no repercussion, a less mature community devolves into just thumb downing every opponent they lose to. Which is ridiculous.

[DrKarotte]

It's the question again about public or private thumbs. When someone skips my turn without any warning exactly in the moment when my time runs out I don't want to play against him again, so I might want to give a red thumb. No one would bother if no one could see the thumbs except me.

[makkuu]

It's the question again about public or private thumbs. When someone skips my turn without any warning exactly in the moment when my time runs out I don't want to play against him again, so I might want to give a red thumb. No one would bother if no one could see the thumbs except me.

That's a very important point also about thumbs - people use thumbs down on this site for two completely different things:

1. Some people use them to mark players they would not want to play again.
That does not mean rude behavior or any kind of other wrong-doing in the game. It could just mean a vast difference in skill (which is a relative, not absolute quality, thus it should not be helpful to other players as information). In short, this interpretation is more personal, subjective and it might not be useful to anyone else to see.

2. Other people mark players strictly on basis of rude behavior, misconduct, bad manners, attempts at cheating etc.
And based on the second way of grading, people also put cut-off filters when they create games. They want people with high thumbs percentage, so that they avoid jerks and trolls.

Both interpretations are okay, but not at the same time for the same system. That leads to confusion. For example, if a beginner at a complex game enters 5 games with experienced players (because nobody else even plays this game, basically), they may receive 5 thumb downs just for being beginners. Consequently, they will also be unable to join other games created with troll-filter, even though they are neither trolls nor have behaved unrespectfully ‎to others.

[Liallan]

3. It's not okay that people can thumb down you for doing nothing wrong. That's why I think every thumb down should require specification of reason with multiple choice and one open answer option. Then admins should be able to look into thumb downs and conclude if they are reasonable or not. And if not - then actually punish the person who thumb downed without good reason (just out of rage)

Sorta going off topic here, but they would not have time to look at every red thumb that comes along. This would only work so that a record was kept in case someone wanted to complain about what they perceive to be an unwarranted one. It can also be pretty subjective, and I wouldn't want them getting carried away cancelling them out. Not to mention if they did, too many people would probably start requesting they be cancelled. And really, about the only totally non-subjective reason would be if you got the red thumb cause you dared to do well in the game.

People will leave red thumbs for all sorts of reasons and have their own interpretation of what it should mean. It should never be left just because you'd choose to not play with that person again. I might have all sorts of reasons to not want to play with someone, that have nothing to do with rudeness and such, but don't deserve a red thumb. I'm not sure it's possible to stop that behavior. Even that big box that comes up with a warning when you're about to leave one doesn't change anything. People just don't read it.

[makkuu]

It should never be left just because you'd choose to not play with that person again.

I wish this could be emphasized by the system somehow. Because I'm sure a lot of people use the thumbs down that way currently.

Again, if the thumbs down always asked to choose from a list of reasons:
- rude behavior
- unfair play (* this could happen in games with 2+ players and hidden information)
- offensive nickname
etc

It would at least demonstrate that this is not supposed to be "mark player I don't want to play again". Also, the latter could be explicitly written in a confirmation dialogue when someone presses thumbs down.

[DrKarotte]

If I am right the BGA crew once announced to change the system. The point was exactly that what was written here - the seperation into a "private" and a "public" rating system. And this is really needed as the thumb system is used in such different ways as written above. In fact it produces lots of trouble which could be avoided.

Some points:
a) When a red thumb is given and this perhaps prevents the player from joining a table because he does not have too many green thumbs (may easily happen to new players) this is not fair if the thumb is not justified. At least a player should have the right to know why he was given the red thumb. So the list of reasons is a good idea. I understand that you should not know who gave the thumb even if this could help clearing a misunderstanding. I actually have 3 red thumbs and I am quite sure that at least 1 of these came from a broken table where it was impossible to play further or to send a chat message while it was my turn. I could have written a PM to every player at the table, of course.

b) Usually people tend to "act" only when they are dissapointed or angry. So I am sure that there are players who give red thumbs but normally do not give green thumbs. The green thumb could be the standard setting after a first match against a player. But then you could not use it to mark players who you really like to play against (there would still be the friend list).

[ringersoll]

I give almost everyone I play against a Green Thumb. I also make a note in the My Personal Notes area listing which games that I have played and if a 2 person game, the results.
There have been a few occasions that I have given a Red Thumb. I will never play against that person again. But if I do not wish to play against them but the offense does not warrant a Red Thumb, then I make a personal note. The fact that there is a personal note and no Green Thumb reminds me that I do not wish to play that person.

A note regarding timing. If you do not warn me that you will enforce the time limit and you kick me at -0:01, then I will give you a Red Thumb. If you warn me, then I will play faster. If I continue to violate the time after a warning and you enforce it, then I understand and you will not get a Red Thumb. But it seems to me that common courtesy would get a warning first.

[Liallan]

@makkau - "unfair play" isn't a good option, cause that could be interpreted all sorts of ways. You know, like beating someone is "unfair." (It'll happen.)

@DrKarotte - Don't like the idea of a sort of "auto" green thumb being given. If it's a "standard setting," then people who don't notice it won't realize they are giving a green thumb. While it's nicer if they do, it should still be up to them or it stops having any meaning. Perhaps a suggestion of giving green thumbs would be good. I wouldn't want something popping up in my face all the time about it, but perhaps have that notice pop up to a new player's first five games or some such, until they get the idea the site would like them to do this. The FAQs talk about it, but no one reads those things.

@ringersoll - I think you are more anal than me. I do give green thumbs to nearly everyone I play, unless there's a reason I wasn't particularly happy but not worth a red thumb. I've given red ones, but it's not common. And I do leave a note on everyone I play. I just don't go as far as you, mentioning what games we played, etc. Usually it's something simple like "Kept up with turns fine" and sometimes I'll add something special, like if they were badly losing and were courteous enough to see the game through. And of course, I make a note about anything bad.

Of course, it's all probably a moot point since we've gone way off topic.