Why ELO doesn't suit to BGA

[glitter and doom]

There are many BG's where there is little luck, all is based on math...doesn't it seem obvious that if you have all the time you can calculate math wise the best move?

OMG.
This may be true for some very simple games. However, in the most of the games this is not even remotely true.

[Zetes]

OMG.
This may be true for some very simple games. However, in the most games this is not even remotely true.
Re: Why ELO doesn't suit to BGA

I said little luck, not "no luck"

A lot of games I play have a minimum of luck just to not make it Chess.

So how do you argue on this, you know all the 83000 games out there?

Lots of games, not only simple games have minimum luck!

If you want to argue just to do so be my guest.

[glitter and doom]

I said little luck, not "no luck"

I know what you said. I wasn't referring to no luck games only.

So how do you argue on this, you know all the 83000 games out there?

I was referring to BGA games (I thought it was quite obvious). I know the most of the games on BGA. The most of the games on BGA are far too complex to calculate all possible moves and combinations.

[DrKarotte]

As I do not pay much attention to Elo and almost no attention to prestige points I have not contributed here. But here are some thoughts.

When I read these postings I ask myself if BGA is a site where you can play board games online which has some statistics, or if it is a site where you can climb virtual rankings using some board games?

Why is it so important to be on TOP 1? So important that some people begin to cheat (and by this perhaps taking the fun away for many others), spending hours of time playing against a stupid robot or a double account? Even if they don't cheat, there must be some kind of manipulation to become "top player" in luck based games. I know enough of mathmatics, statistics and likelihood to know that it is impossible to get such high Elo values without manipulation (I want to stress that I don't mean cheating here).

Is it funny or rather sad to read how kindergarden-like some of these Elo guys behave? (like this: "You cheated" "I did not. You are a cheater. I was on Top 1 before you." "You silly guy. I am better than you.")

BGA has just simplified the reputation system. It would be a step in the wrong direction to introduce a complicated prestige system now. I would suggest to get rid of the whole prestige points. The true prestige is: contributing to BGA by developping a game, spending money, translating strings, helping beginners - and not being "better" than others. Elo needs no change.

I would prefer BGA to work further on sandbox, developping new games or fixing old bugs.

I have absolutely no admiration for anyone who is in the top rankings except for games with no or very little luck.

[tap-zbyna]

Hello to everyone,

I would like to comment on the ELO topic.

I think that the whole ELO system is quite overrated. We are not playing for money as for example tennis players are. Basically I use the ELO only for checking whether to play with a player. In Libertalia I just know that playing with a 1500 and less player will result in a game no one of us can call enjoyable.

The main thing to remember about ELO system is that the system is unfair. Many different situation are unfair:

1) Player with 1500 ELO, who is a begginer in theory, but practically he has the game at home with 1000+ games played. This is very common situation.

2) Losing a Libertalia game being the black player is something that happens in 1 of 3 games with evenly experienced players. Black has much better position. I suggested to switch 2p variant to Blue - White decks, but nobody answered my topic.

Libertalia is just one example, still the game is beatifully balanced, so the colour has not that big impact in the most of games.

Much worse is NOIR: Killer vs Inspector. If you are the inspector and your opponent is good, there is almost no way to defeat him. I lost like 1 game of 50 last games as the killer. Is there anyone who thinks that losing a game as the inspector should be as devastating as losing as a killer? I don´t think so.

3) Some games are not always about skill - yathzee, koryo... Losing 30 points of ELO for losing to a player who gets yathzee and rigole in last two turns without rerolling the dices is really NOT fair. On the other hand Puerto Rico, chess or Quoridor are games of experience, tactics and skill.

4) Player with 1880 ELO is hell of a good player. And defeating him is very difficult even for someone with 2020 points. Getiing 5 points of ELO for winning the game with this player is just silly.

Anyway the ELO system is not the reason people play games on BGA (I sincerely hope so). The spirit of BGA is in playing with people you can´t play with and enjoy high-level games with great and experienced players. This will not stop after any thinkable change of ELO system.

In my opinion the system does not need a big change, but I accept any change that would happen and it will not stop me from playing games here. If the ELO reseting would be implied, I suggest every player to have his best ELO in history next to his name also. Something like "tap-zbyna, current ELO: 1745 (career best: 1862 in April 2014)". So everyone can see the quality of player.

I have absolutely no admiration for anyone who is in the top rankings except for games with no or very little luck.

This does not make a sense at all. The player on the top is definitely very good in the game, if it is about luck or not. Nobody can make top10 just by luck or accident since about 40 games need to be played to make the expert ELO (even with 90-10 win-loss rate which is almost impossible to achieve).

I know enough of mathmatics, statistics and likelihood to know that it is impossible to get such high Elo values without manipulation...

I am very sorry, man, but you don´t know anything of "mathematics, statistics and likelihood" if you write something like this. If skill is involved, there is NO WAY to implement simple statistics. That is why betting on sport games is so damn difficult.

[psrv]

You may find the following Excel sheet interesting :

https://x.boardgamearena.net/data/newsi ... lysis.xlsx

For each games, for the 10 top players, I display :

• number of day since the last ranked game.
• number of ranked games in the last 60 days.

Yellow indicates players that has played 5 games or less in the last 60 days, which is very few to be considered as a "top 10" players.

As you can see :

• There is way too much yellow => If we keep ELO as it is no (without reset or decay), we cannot use it anymore for rankings.
• The only games with a decent rankings are the new ones : for most of the recent games, top players have all played a significant number of games and no one is "defending a position" => This is what incite me to recreate these conditions for all games at each seasons.

Late to the party but I'll add my 2 cents. This is a very interesting spreadsheet sourisdudesert - thank you for compiling it. The two game I predominately play -Hawaii and RftG - are polar opposites. Hawaii has one yellow and RftG has only one non-yellow (me). I think this is mostly a function of luck. Hawaii is a lower-luck game (at least for 2 player) and so the top players can play ranked games with high confidence that the result will be determined by skill. RftG is a higher-luck game and the top players will drop out of the top 10 if they continue to play, so they either stop playing (that is, play one game against a low ranked opponent every 60(?) days) or play with a second account or play unranked games. I think it would be good if something is done about this - in my opinion, the top 10 in RftG should be in constant flux, reflecting the higher-luck element of that game. I don't have any immediate suggestions to make this happen but I'm sure others will think of something

[Arthur Sp]

Hi,
I won't make a big post because lot of what i think have already been said.
I like the ELO system as it is right now. I like the idea of "seasonal tournaments".
All players here should know Unabstainer. He make tournaments and groups.
He's doing a lot to keep games played by promote best players with others statistics than ELO. You should see his work