Weaknesses of the translation system

[ThierryC]

Hello all,

While I was looking to help with the translations (FR|EN), I noticed a few issues which are quite significant in my opinion, especially when combined together:

1. Before a string in FR (or EN) is validated, it seems there is no reference, at least from a translator's viewpoint (non-admin). There are cases where translators argue that EN is the reference string, whereas I believe the opposite is true (vice-versa in few occasions).
2. Earning "gift points" seems to drive a lot of translators into chasing possible modifications, rather than genuinely helping the community and the general interest.
3. In some instances (mainly general strings), I have the impression that the initial string which looks like the reference (FR) was a draft, so that it may/should be improved for the general interest (clarity, brevity, ...). However, it is available for translation in other languages before this improvement step, while at the same time appearing as being a string which can be translated (see 1). This combined with (1) & (2) leads to rather absurd situations; also because literal translations are often not the best.

I believe EN and FR->EN are the most used "source" languages, so if they are bad, not consistent, or unstable, this propagates to other languages. It may lead to complete misunderstanding between players.

So, I suggest that:

• the ambiguity about which string is the reference should be eliminated;
• the reference string should be available for improvements, but should not appear as a string to be translated. <-- solves above point
• awarding gift points should be thought further (or simply removed?).
  To illustrate my point: imagine what Wikipedia would look like if contributors (always) had an "economic" interest for making modifications...

(Not to mention that it is unfair when someone contributes 80% to a translation, but the points are given solely to the last who only changed a punctuation mark, a letter, or a space —but I have no good idea to solve this issue).


I hope these thought can help improve the players' experience on BGA.

Wish you all a nice Holiday season / end of year.
Thierry

[Een]

Thanks for your feedback!

the ambiguity about which string is the reference should be eliminated;

Source language is always English (development is done in English).
There should be no ambiguity since when a new string is available for translation it's available in English only.
But we should indeed upload the translation guidelines to state it clearly (and remove the part saying that we do the French translation, we have been relying on the community for that for a long time now )

the reference string should be available for improvements, but should not appear as a string to be translated.

Well, that's actually the case: English is available so that strings can be improved (since English is not necessarily the mother language of developers, there can be some mistakes), but there is a warning when you change an English string asking you to confirm that you really want to change the reference string.

awarding gift points should be thought further (or simply removed?)

Translating is a valuable contribution to the site, so having a small reward for it seems nice.
Over the years, I haven't been made aware of a lot of abuse, and when looking at the number of strings translated it seems clear to me that most contributors don't do it just for gift points.

Not to mention that it is unfair when someone contributes 80% to a translation, but the points are given solely to the last who only changed a punctuation mark, a letter, or a space —but I have no good idea to solve this issue

There is no real way to measure the quality of a translation, so this is indeed an imperfect compromise. Still, it has the advantage of encouraging to do a perfect translation the first time so even if imperfect it's kinda virtuous

Thanks for your interest in contributing to the French translation, there is always some need for proofreading and improvement!

[ThierryC]

Hello Een,

Thanks for your feedback!

You are welcome!
Thanks for these clarifications.

Source language is always English (development is done in English).
There should be no ambiguity since when a new string is available for translation it's available in English only.
But we should indeed upload the translation guidelines to state it clearly (and remove the part saying that we do the French translation, we have been relying on the community for that for a long time now )

Did you already adapted the guidelines? Because I've just rechecked them and I'm pretty sure it wasn't this clear before.

Still, for someone new, English may still appear as being available for translation rather than improvement, because of the terminology used (no distinction with other languages, except for that warning).
About that warning: honestly, I think it's not clear enough. I had not realized it was only there for EN, and by "base", I had understood "initial", not reference. Moreover, the warning "Vous modifiez la traduction de base en Anglais." refers to translation, not to improvement, such that it favours that confusion. This impression was reinforced by the fact that English looks worse than French in several instances (at least for the main site, not so sure for games).

By the way, is it supposed to be American-English or British-English? (looks like American, but just to be sure)

Translating is a valuable contribution to the site, so having a small reward for it seems nice.
Over the years, I haven't been made aware of a lot of abuse, and when looking at the number of strings translated it seems clear to me that most contributors don't do it just for gift points.

I don't know for other languages, but it seems clear to me that there are "battles for points" for the EN & FR strings. People do not necessarily report it.
I understand and agree that it is a valuable contribution. What I'm not sure, is whether such reward really is effective to make it valuable it terms of quality (not only quantity). The reward could be on another form, e.g. an indication on the profile such as a translation score, similar to the symbol indicating that the player is contributing to BGA by paying the service).

There is no real way to measure the quality of a translation, so this is indeed an imperfect compromise. Still, it has the advantage of encouraging to do a perfect translation the first time so even if imperfect it's kinda virtuous

I agree. I'm know it's not easy to find a better compromise. I'm just pointing that it's really much quicker and easier to slightly tweak a translation than to write it from scratch. That's why the reward can make it worse.

Thanks for your interest in contributing to the French translation, there is always some need for proofreading and improvement!

You are welcome. I'll probably also contribute with a subscription if I realise I manage to keep up with turn-by-turn games when I'm not in holidays.

Thierry

[Een]

Did you already adapted the guidelines? Because I've just rechecked them and I'm pretty sure it wasn't this clear before.

Yes
BTW, since it's a wiki, you can check for the update history for the guidelines (and improve them too if needed).

Still, for someone new, English may still appear as being available for translation rather than improvement, because of the terminology used (no distinction with other languages, except for that warning).

Well, it's basically the same thing.
Only thing is, you are translating from (developer imperfect) English to (hopefully better, native speaker) English
Maybe we should make the English strings modifiable only if the source language is English. I'll add this to my todo list, but it's low priority. There has been very few (reported) cases of bad updates of English strings.

About that warning: honestly, I think it's not clear enough. I had not realized it was only there for EN, and by "base", I had understood "initial", not reference. Moreover, the warning "Vous modifiez la traduction de base en Anglais." refers to translation, not to improvement, such that it favours that confusion.

That message is itself a translation, so it can be changed easily. Do you have a proposal?

English looks worse than French in several instances (at least for the main site, not so sure for games).

We are not native English speakers, that's why the strings are available for improvement.

By the way, is it supposed to be American-English or British-English? (looks like American, but just to be sure)

International English of course

I don't know for other languages, but it seems clear to me that there are "battles for points" for the EN & FR strings. People do not necessarily report it.

It would get reported if translators felt that it's abused, ie if their translations were changed while not moving towards a better translation.
If the translation is changed, even on small things, into a better translation, then the system is working since the purpose is to get translations to improve until they are really good.

What I'm not sure, is whether such reward really is effective to make it valuable it terms of quality (not only quantity).

That's really something it would be difficult to be sure of. It would need extensive quantitative and qualitative analysis, and it can also vary between languages and associated cultures.
Like any system it obviously depends a lot on the goodwill and sense of fairness of people taking part in it. With a community of boardgame players the bet is we should be good on that (and that exceptions can be corrected by the majority)

The reward could be on another form, e.g. an indication on the profile such as a translation score, similar to the symbol indicating that the player is contributing to BGA by paying the service).

Yes, it could be another form. Would that work better? Not sure either

[ThierryC]

Hi Een,

Thank you for the time you spent answering my post!

BTW, since it's a wiki, you can check for the update history for the guidelines (and improve them too if needed).

Right! That didn't come to my mind, sorry.

Well, it's basically the same thing.
Only thing is, you are translating from (developer imperfect) English to (hopefully better, native speaker) English
Maybe we should make the English strings modifiable only if the source language is English. I'll add this to my todo list, but it's low priority.

I understand that, no worry.
If people understand it like "imperfect English => improvement" then it's fine and as you said a bad string is unlikely to exist for long. A situation that may be a bit more problematic is if the meaning is incorrect in another language and that it is taken as reference to "translate" back into English. (I made that mistake before knowing which was the reference - mea culpa.) Without context, it's trickier to identify (quickly).

About that warning: honestly, I think it's not clear enough. I had not realized it was only there for EN, and by "base", I had understood "initial", not reference. Moreover, the warning "Vous modifiez la traduction de base en Anglais." refers to translation, not to improvement, such that it favours that confusion.

That message is itself a translation, so it can be changed easily. Do you have a proposal?

I think I do not have access to it (yet).
In French, I would suggest something like: "Vous modifiez le texte anglais de référence" ou "Vous modifiez le texte de référence (anglais)" (btw, I realize now that a language in French shouldn't take a capital letter)
and in English : "You are modifying the (English) text of reference".

English looks worse than French in several instances (at least for the main site, not so sure for games).

We are not native English speakers, that's why the strings are available for improvement.

Just to be clear, the purpose of my words were not to complain or curse developers & admins. I hope nobody was offended. I apologize if it appeared so.

It would get reported if translators felt that it's abused, ie if their translations were changed while not moving towards a better translation.
If the translation is changed, even on small things, into a better translation, then the system is working since the purpose is to get translations to improve until they are really good.

Well, there are lots of subjective matters especially on the small things.

Like any system it obviously depends a lot on the goodwill and sense of fairness of people taking part in it. With a community of boardgame players the bet is we should be good on that (and that exceptions can be corrected by the majority)

I bet we are especially good at competition and chasing rewards.

Yes, it could be another form. Would that work better? Not sure either

True.
Anyway, if by any chance my post did somehow contribute to the community or that something emerges from it later, that's cool.

At least, the incentive of the system clearly leads to fast translations of new games. I participated to Nippon with 2+ others and it's already quite good in my opinion after only 24 hours

Have a nice day!

[Een]

In French, I would suggest something like: "Vous modifiez le texte anglais de référence" ou "Vous modifiez le texte de référence (anglais)" (btw, I realize now that a language in French shouldn't take a capital letter)
and in English : "You are modifying the (English) text of reference".

Looks good, I made the change along those lines. Thanks!

Just to be clear, the purpose of my words were not to complain or curse developers & admins. I hope nobody was offended. I apologize if it appeared so.

Sure, I was just explaining why source English strings are not always top notch

Anyway, if by any chance my post did somehow contribute to the community or that something emerges from it later, that's cool.

Constructive feedback is always welcome, Thanks for that!

Bye!