ELO rank now visible from everyone!

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sourisdudesert
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ELO rank now visible from everyone!

Post by sourisdudesert »

To enjoy the new 2017, we have the pleasure to make today ELO rank visible for all BGA players, and not only for Club members.

Your ELO rank increases/decreases when you win/lose games on BGA, and is a really cool number to measure your skill for each game. We feel that a lot of you are very motivated by winning ELO points and trying to get to the top of the leaderboard for each game, so we chose to open it to everyone to make this service even more popular :)

This decision is little bit risky for us: there may be less paying members, which means less money to keep this service running. However, now that BGA is proposing a growing catalog of premium games for whom table creation can be accessed by our Club members only, we feel that it is worthy to try this.

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To make ELO more fair, more easy to understand and more enjoyable for beginners, we also did the following improvements :
  • When you are a complete beginner at a game, your ELO is now 0 (makes more sense than 1500).
  • From 1 to 100 ("Apprentice" level), you can only win ELO points (your ELO cannot decrease).
  • Above 100, the former rules of ELO applies (you win/lose points when you win/lose games), except that you can never go below 100 (minimum ELO).
  • To convert your old ELO into the new one, you just have to subtract 1300 (ex : 1450 before => 150 after).
  • There are now 7 skills levels : Beginner (0 point), Apprentice (1-99 points), Average (100-199), Good (200-299), Strong (300-499), Expert (500-699), Master (700+).
  • To learn more about these improvements, please check the FAQ in this news comment.
We hope opening up ELO visibility will incite you to play even more on BGA, and wish you a 2017 year full of games!
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sourisdudesert
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Re: ELO rank now visible from everyone!

Post by sourisdudesert »

Why opening up ELO visibility to everyone?

ELO points you win/lose after each game are a motivation for a lot of players on BGA.

Until now, 1 month after your registration, you were not able to see your ELO anymore. Some players were losing a lot of their motivation after that.

To fix this, we have been wanting to open ELO to everyone for a long time, but of course we need money to run this service, and so the money generated by people subscribing because of the "hidden ELO" was needed. However, now that there is a strong catalog of "premium games" on BGA, we are confident that there will be the same number of players that will support us and get a subscription (and hopefully, more), so we thought it was time to open up ELO to anyone.

Is this risky for you? Is this change permanent?

Yes this is risky. But we are confident everything is going to went fine.

We will analyse the impact on subscriptions after a while, and check if we can continue to run the service like this. If this is not he case (ex : significant drop of Club subscriptions), we will find a way to fix this, probably by hiding/blocking something that is currently free. But this will probably not be ELO as we are convinced that ELO should be open to everyone for the reasons explained before.

Is prestige open to everyone like ELO?

We will make some adjustments too on prestige so there's going to be another news specifically on prestige. But yes, you can consider that prestige is/will be open to anyone for the exact same reasons than ELO.

Why did you introduce a minimum ELO on BGA?

When you learnt a new game on BGA, your ELO started at 1500 and used to decrease quickly to 1400 or 1300 because it is usual to loose your first games.

It was very discouraging for a lot of players to see that someone who never played had a 1500 ELO while they had a 1400 ELO after a few games.

We want to reward the effort of learning a new game, so we changed the system to make sure that you can only WIN points during your first games, and never have less than someone that just started playing this game.


Why subtracting 1300 to all ELO scores displayed?

With the new system, you cannot go below a certain value (initial beginner's ELO), so it is actually more simple to consider that this value is zero.

We know that you are used to playing with the old values, but we cannot keep an underperforming system because of that.

We are 100% sure you will get used to the new values after few games, and in the case you really need to compare with some old valuel, you just have to add 1300 :)


The number of games played / number of victories have disappeared!

No they haven't.

When an opponent joins your table, just put your mouse over the ELO bar to see them.

These informations are less important than ELO and skill level (ex : "Expert"), so we moved them a little step further. This is a very small price to pay to have a more clear display, and to get everyone to understand that the best way to evaluate the skill of his/her opponent is the ELO score.


How did you convert old ELOs into new ones?

If you have 0 games played: new ELO = 0.
If you have more than 4 games played: new ELO = old ELO - 1300, with a minimum of 100.
If you have between 0 and 4 games played: new ELO = old ELO - 1300, with a minimum of 1.


Why did you keep the name "ELO" while this is not "ELO" anymore?


Because this is still ELO.

We are using the ELO formula, which still makes sense.

We just introduced a minimum. When you get a few points above 100 ELO, the new system has no difference with the ELO system.


Since there is a minimum, there is no way now to distinguish between a very weak player and an average player?


This is partially true: as the minimum ELO after a few games correspond to the old "1400 ELO", it may be more difficult to distinguish between a weak player and a very weak player.

However :
_ there is going to be a (limited) ELO inflation after the introduction of the minimum ELO, and consequently even a weak player should be able to have an ELO around 150 by beating very weak players, and consequently you'll be able to distinguish them.
_ we consider that it is way more important to not discourage beginners/weak players than to distinguish between weak/very weak players. After all, if you are a strong player at a game, weak/very weak is practically the same from your point of view.

I've noted that the ELO points we win/lose has decreased, it this normal?


Yes. We slightly modified the "K factor", which indicate how many ELO points you win/lose against an opponent with your level. We'd like to make ELO a little bit more stable for regular players (until now your ELO could vary way too much with only a few games).

If you have less than 10 games played, K=60 (you win 30 points against a player with the same ELO).
If you have between 10 and 20 games played, K=40 (you win 20 points against a player with the same ELO).
Above 20 games played, K=20 (you win 10 points against a player with the same ELO).
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asd123321
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Re: ELO rank now visible from everyone!

Post by asd123321 »

There is plenty of room to display the wins and games played in the box giving rating on the page we are waiting for players. This would be better to having to use pointer to see it.
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sourisdudesert
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Re: ELO rank now visible from everyone!

Post by sourisdudesert »

asd123321 wrote:There is plenty of room to display the wins and games played in the box
The issue is not available space but clarity, as explained above :)
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kicekpicek_pl
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Re: ELO rank now visible from everyone!

Post by kicekpicek_pl »

asd123321 wrote:There is plenty of room to display the wins and games played in the box giving rating on the page we are waiting for players. This would be better to having to use pointer to see it.
I agree - there is no pointer on mobile for example:)

And I think there is something wrong in K description about points
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TheFourthJesse
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Re: ELO rank now visible from everyone!

Post by TheFourthJesse »

I, for one, am super pumped about this change to ELO. I am almost pumped enough to become a subscriber because BGA is awesome for doing this.
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texascpa
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Re: ELO rank now visible from everyone!

Post by texascpa »

If you keep bringing on games like Nippon, you can rest assured I will keep on paying. I have a friend that specifically paid for a subscription because of Nippon.
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bart182
Posts: 4
Joined: 03 September 2015, 07:28

Re: ELO rank now visible from everyone!

Post by bart182 »

I created tournament for experts & masters only, but now it's for good & strong. Сorrec this bug.

https://ru.boardgamearena.com/#!tournament?id=9180
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Memona
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Re: ELO rank now visible from everyone!

Post by Memona »

Thank you, BGA! You are cool people :)
Liallan
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Re: ELO rank now visible from everyone!

Post by Liallan »

Overall, I like the idea. Seeing my ELO is not what would make me become a club member, i.e. it would have to be for another reason and therefore being able to see it wouldn't change that. But as a non-club member, I've always felt my ELO was being "held hostage" for not being a paying member. It's always been a conflict that under the club member page it says "You don't need to see stats to have fun, right?" (which I always felt was an excuse), and yet under another set of FAQs it states it's more fun to play with people near your own level (which is more the truth). I don't want to see it for sake of seeing it, but rather to know where I stand and know who I'm playing against. I'm not as concerned about the other stats, but I've always hated not seeing ELO.

I have no issue with paying members getting some type of bonus. I just never saw ELO as a "bonus," but rather something we ought to be able to see. So premium games is a perfectly fine bonus, or even other less common stats. So I see this as totally good.

New numbers I can get used to. (Every place I go does it differently so I always have to adjust anyway.)

But... just a few issues...

The minimum of 100. I suppose we could see that as 0. But, let's say someone is at 98 and they win a game and go over 100, but then lose the next game. I don't get the concept of not dropping back where "you belong." It's not uncommon to hit some new threshold with a win but not stay there because you can't win all the time. If you can't get back over that threshold, perhaps you don't belong there? (Is it impossible for ELO to go negative? I know TrueSkill can, but over on Yucata, the negatives aren't visible except for a couple of places, where newbies might not notice and then not feel as bad. Otherwise they show as 0's.)

I also have to wonder how hard it is to get to 100. Considering that's the equivalent of 1400, I hope not too difficult. I'm not below that for anything, even my worst game, so really, I hope it wouldn't be hard to be to 100.
The number of games played / number of victories have disappeared!

No they haven't.

When an opponent joins your table, just put your mouse over the ELO bar to see them.

These informations are less important than ELO and skill level (ex : "Expert"), so we moved them a little step further. This is a very small price to pay to have a more clear display, and to get everyone to understand that the best way to evaluate the skill of his/her opponent is the ELO score.
Wow, I have to completely, absolutely and in every way possible disagree with this statement. I agree the "name" of the level isn't so important, other than a way to compare relatively, as getting a new name because you went up 1 point isn't very meaningful. But the idea that ELO is the "best" way to evaluate an opponent, or that number of games is somehow not that important, I disagree with. I absolutely pay attention to number of games and wins. Granted, it makes a difference the player count on the game (which is why the "hits" is meaningful), so just number of wins isn't that relevant, but I think number of games is. Now I'm just making up numbers here because I don't know the math behind ELO, but if I saw two players with ELO 400, and one has only 10 games and the other has 200 games, I'm going to see that 400 very differently. Or how about someone at 101 with 10 games vs someone with 200 games. The number of games is totally relevant.

Just like with the thumbs, I'm starting to feel too much like someone else gets to decide what's important to me, rather than me deciding for myself. I'm not talking about me getting to "dictate" everything, but rather that I feel a bit like we're being told how we should think.
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