IS IT EVER OK TO TELL OTHER PLAYERS HOW TOP PLAY?

[PhilipK_]

Example, we are playing Stone Age.

Player B tells Player C "Take the Agriculture".

Player A replies, "Let others play their own game please."

Player B replies, "He is a newbie. It is our responsibility to help him."

Player D makes very similar reply.

Player A replies, "This is an ELO game. Advice is for non-ELO games. There is ELO ON Y/N option for those who want to give advice."

Player D replies, "I disagree."

Two separate topics:
1) saying, "Make this move so that Player C cannot make it" is bad form, and manipulative, but some agree it is part of games we play at home
2) saying, "It is our job to help newbies" is ok only if discussing how to use the interface, in my opinion, but it is not ok to give strategy advice because that is contrary to the intent of the of ELO system.

What say you?

[DoctorSink]

When you play against a newbie, it's your responsability to explain all the choices and their consequences, but it's not ok to tell them what to do, I think. I personally don't like being told what to do when I learn a game.

[Shaq Jenkins]

This is a great question.

I agree that there's a difference between rules advice and strategy advice.

Example 1: I'm currently learning how to play Elfenland. I didn't know that you could use multiple cards to move to another city. I ended my turn prematurely and ended up only getting one point. Another player informed me about this rule. I think what this player did was okay because he wasn't giving me strategy advice - he was only telling me about a rule that I didn't know about.

Example 2: I was playing 4 player Tokaido with a beginner. One player literally told the beginner where to move and what to buy at the village and inn. This was clearly strategy advice - the beginner did not think of these moves on his own and had another player guiding him. I think this is wrong (the beginner also came in second place because the other player essentially made his moves for him).

You also have to make sure that the beginner is actually receptive of advice - some people do not want others telling them how to play and like to learn games on their own. And you have to make sure that the advice isn't condescending - I saw one player make sarcastic remarks about a beginner's moves, which wasn't necessary.

Basically, it's okay to tell beginners what the rules are, but let them figure out strategy on their own. Strategies are also personalized - what works for some players doesn't work for others. There are times when you need to adjust your strategy based on the game situation. In Tokaido, I often see players tell beginners not to skip too many spaces, but there are some situations where it's necessary to.

[sprockitz]

I think giving general strategy advice at the BEGINNING of a game with newbies is okay. That said, you have to be careful how to give it and make sure they want it. My advice is usually just emphasizing certain parts of the rules so they can see the benefits of certain actions over other actions...

For example in stone age, at the beginning of a game I see no problem telling a new player it is generally most important to build up your infrastructure of tools, agriculture and people...and stating that ag is worth 1 food which costs 2 per turn, a tool adds one to a die roll (basically reminding them of the value of each of the 3 without explicitly stating it)

In Tokaido, when someone visits a village for the 1st time I don't like telling them what to buy, but would have no problem (and frequently do so in games in person) reminding the person that there are 4 types of souveiners, it is best to get different types, and go through the cost of each souveiner type. This tells them there are 2 types with variable cost and implies they should buy those if they have the cheaper cost one available. At the first inn, a reminder that you get 6 vp regardless of which food you buy and more expensive food only helps for the 3 point bonus at the end as a way to indicate to buy cheaper food is fine as well. Getting into specifics like buy this one so I can buy that one so player 3 can't buy any food would be frowned upon...but again that would only happen in later rounds once people's food choices are limited...which is why you remind them in the first leg and after that they can make their own assessments.

[PhilipK_]

"and after that they can make their own assessments"

Agreed. In this Stone Age game, then player was taking a 10 pt penalty for not feeding his meoples. Many players intentionally do this.

This player had already taken the Ag spot at least once in the game and surely was aware of its effect. This player also placed meoples in the field, and was surely aware of the need to feed.

The player offering the advice was also aware of these things. The advice came late in the game. IMO the player giving the (unsolicited) advice was out of line.

[ConManAU]

My opinion is:

Asking for broad strategy advice when you're new to a game? OK.

Providing strategy advice to someone who asks for it? OK.

Asking if a player needs any assistance, especially if they're marked as "new to the game" or have made a move that suggests they're not aware of something? OK.

Telling a player what they should have done on a previous turn? Still OK, but getting into questionable territory.

Telling a player what they should do this turn, especially if you're giving advice that is favorable to your own strategy? Not OK.

Complaining that a player made the "wrong move" and has now ruined your game? Definitely not OK.

[Liallan]

For example in stone age, at the beginning of a game I see no problem telling a new player it is generally most important to build up your infrastructure of tools, agriculture and people...

Plenty of people who can win without getting more people, so "important" is an opinion and depends on your strategy. And there's even more people (probably) who win without much tools. As a generic comment, it somewhat works, but isn't a definitive strategy.

In Tokaido, when someone visits a village for the 1st time I don't like telling them what to buy, but would have no problem (and frequently do so in games in person) reminding the person that there are 4 types of souveiners, it is best to get different types, and go through the cost of each souveiner type.

If you're using rules as a way to understanding strategy, then a reminder that getting different types is what gets points is better than just saying it's "best to get different types." The rule leads to the understanding of getting different types. In other words, doesn't sound like you're following your own method, which is doing rules so that they can figure out the benefits. Rather, you're telling them what's best to do and not the rule.

I'm not really trying to pick on what you're saying, but just trying to make a point that, first, you don't seem to be following what you said, but more importantly, not everyone wants the same thing and there's different viable strategies.


Just getting back to the basic concept here, Shaq will surely be shocked that I mostly agree with her post.

This is an individual thing and I don't think anyone should be assuming what you should or should not tell another player. First and foremost, I don't consider it a "responsibility" to help a new player unless that's what they have specifically requested. It's not only not a responsibility, but they may not want it, and therefore could be an annoyance.

I don't want help unless I ask for it, and that includes the rules. If it seems obvious that I've messed up something in the rules, I don't mind someone asking if I'm aware of said rule, but I overall don't want someone spouting all the rules at me. I will have already read the rules, and if I don't understand, I can ask. I also like to figure things out for myself if I can, so I don't want strategy tips either unless I ask for them. But if someone knows I'm new and trying to play a learning game, I'll tell them I'll ask if I have questions just so we're on the same page. Later in the game I might change my mind, and I'll let them know. If someone else is the newb, I'll ask if they were looking for specific help - I think that should be up to them.

Now, an ELO game - no one really should be giving strategy advice in a multi-player game unless all players are OK with it. I think if you've got a friendly group of players, who are mostly playing for fun, no one is probably going to mind. (No one in my game group would mind, but there's no ELO either.) But you need to know that no one minds, and also that the newbie is OK with it as well. And Player A obviously does mind. Strictly rules or interface is a different matter.

[demiurgsage]

In my opinion players can tell each other anything except insults and hidding information. If someone gives another player an advice that isn't good for you just tell that player that advice giver wins more from this move than he. If you didn't make an agreement to play without chat you can't expect that players will not influence on gameplay with chat. This is the reality of live boardgames, and BGA just reproduce it.

[sprockitz]

Liallan you are right about the tokaido example. I do try and just go over how they are scored (which implies different is better, but explains why over just simply stating that it is the way I implied in my post).

For Stone Age of course you don't need to build them all up, and usually it is better to either focus on tools or people and not go heavy into both...but I still think it is good general advice for stone age (and pretty much any worker placement game) that you build up production capability early and convert to victory point focus as the game moves along.

[Liallan]

In my opinion players can tell each other anything except insults and hidding information. If someone gives another player an advice that isn't good for you just tell that player that advice giver wins more from this move than he. If you didn't make an agreement to play without chat you can't expect that players will not influence on gameplay with chat. This is the reality of live boardgames, and BGA just reproduce it.

That may be the reality of it, but it doesn't mean everyone has to agree it's OK. And casual in-person games don't have ELO so BGA didn't completely reproduce a real-life experience. I'm not going to specifically tell people that I want to play without the chat. Not only does it seem silly to say that to avoid something that someone might find annoying, but not wanting to chat might come off as rude and be worse than someone giving unsolicited advice. And in a multi-player game, I'm certainly not going to tell people they can't chat with each other!!