Metagaming - one way to reduce it

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StringsAndVerses
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Joined: 28 November 2011, 06:45

Metagaming - one way to reduce it

Post by StringsAndVerses »

I would like to request that a Player's ELO rating be concealed while he is in a game. I have had more than one player tell me that the reason they targeted one player over another was because they choose the player showing the higher ELO. No doubt numerous others chose the same way, but kept their reason a secret.

Either way, I don't like it. Let the table administrator decide what skill level(s) he wants playing at table creation, then once the game starts, let's forget about who's got which ELO and focus on playing properly.
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senatorhung
Posts: 277
Joined: 09 February 2012, 02:54

Re: Metagaming - one way to reduce it

Post by senatorhung »

StringsAndVerses wrote:I would like to request that a Player's ELO rating be concealed while he is in a game. I have had more than one player tell me that the reason they targeted one player over another was because they choose the player showing the higher ELO. No doubt numerous others chose the same way, but kept their reason a secret.

Either way, I don't like it. Let the table administrator decide what skill level(s) he wants playing at table creation, then once the game starts, let's forget about who's got which ELO and focus on playing properly.
playing for ELO benefit *IS* a gameplay strategy. if you finish ahead of the person with the higher ELO .. your ELO boost is higher. you *can* get a bunch of prestige by winning tournaments, but for most players, boosting their own ELO is the only way to make headway on the prestige leaderboard.

from your profile, you've only played 7 of the available games, a total of 48 times. i'd suggest getting a few more games under your belt before you worry about meta.gaming. if the other players at the table are colluding, feel free to give them red thumbs, but if they are making a choice as to who to grief based on EL0, all other things being equal, then your strong status in Puerto Rico is just a badge of honour you will have to wear.
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sprockitz
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Joined: 23 October 2014, 02:22

Re: Metagaming - one way to reduce it

Post by sprockitz »

senatorhung wrote:playing for ELO benefit *IS* a gameplay strategy. if you finish ahead of the person with the higher ELO .. your ELO boost is higher.
Once a table is set, the only thing that matters for your Elo is your final position. It doesn't matter whether you beat a strong person and lose to a weak person or vice versa.

As to the original point, yes meta gaming (or ganging up on a perceived stronger player) can happen. It happens every single time I play a game in real life, I chose to take it as a sign of respect. :-) You'll notice on here that most of the highest prestige players get there by playing 2 player games...and game control is the primary reason for it. It prevents intentional ganging up on a strong player as well as unintentional ganging up where a 3rd player makes mistakes that benefit player x over player y. I understand not wanting others to make decisions based on other player's Elo's during a game, but I don't see a practical way to hide Elo that doesn't hurt the site significantly, I think the best you could do is make it less convenient to see another person's Elo. Right now if hidden during a game you can still see it before a game starts or during the game you can go to the player page and see the Elo. Hiding Elo from the player page with a game in progress could work for real time games but it is impractical for turn-based games.
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senatorhung
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Re: Metagaming - one way to reduce it

Post by senatorhung »

sprockitz wrote:Once a table is set, the only thing that matters for your Elo is your final position. It doesn't matter whether you beat a strong person and lose to a weak person or vice versa.
that is not my understanding.

take a 5.player 6 nimmt! game. knowing you finish 3rd of 5, you do NOT know whether you gain or lose ELO.

your ELO can be positive if the 2 players you beat have higher ELOs than you AND the players that beat you have higher EL0. (your ELO gains from the 4th and 5th players outweigh your ELO losses to the 1st and 2d)

if the 2 players you beat have higher ELO, but the 2 players that beat you have lower ELO ... you hover around the break even mark.

your ELO can be negative if the 2 players you beat have lower ELO and the 2 players that beat you have higher ELO. (ELO gains outweighed by ELO losses).

same situation applies to a 3.player takenoko game. if you have the highest ELO at the table .. you have to finish first to gain positive ELO. if you have the lowest ELO at the table, you pretty much have to finish last in order to lose ELO, unless the original ELO rank differences are slight.

but i do agree with your assertion that the higher ranked players on the prestige leaderboard tend to focus on 2 player games to minimize this sort of variance.
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sprockitz
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Joined: 23 October 2014, 02:22

Re: Metagaming - one way to reduce it

Post by sprockitz »

senatorhung wrote:
sprockitz wrote:Once a table is set, the only thing that matters for your Elo is your final position. It doesn't matter whether you beat a strong person and lose to a weak person or vice versa.
that is not my understanding.

take a 5.player 6 nimmt! game. knowing you finish 3rd of 5, you do NOT know whether you gain or lose ELO.

your ELO can be positive if the 2 players you beat have higher ELOs than you AND the players that beat you have higher EL0. (your ELO gains from the 4th and 5th players outweigh your ELO losses to the 1st and 2d)

if the 2 players you beat have higher ELO, but the 2 players that beat you have lower ELO ... you hover around the break even mark.

your ELO can be negative if the 2 players you beat have lower ELO and the 2 players that beat you have higher ELO. (ELO gains outweighed by ELO losses).

same situation applies to a 3.player takenoko game. if you have the highest ELO at the table .. you have to finish first to gain positive ELO. if you have the lowest ELO at the table, you pretty much have to finish last in order to lose ELO, unless the original ELO rank differences are slight.

but i do agree with your assertion that the higher ranked players on the prestige leaderboard tend to focus on 2 player games to minimize this sort of variance.
The Elo's of each person matter, but which opponents you beat and which ones you finish behind don't...only your position.

So losing to two players 200 ahead of you and beating two players with the same Elo results in the same net Elo as beating the two players 200 ahead andosing to the 2 players with the same Elo.

For a 5 player game (assuming the game's ideal number of players is 5 or more, and you've played at least 20 games), the number of points up for grabs (K) in each individual matchup is 20*5/(2*(5-1)) = 12.5

So to clearly show who you beat doesn't matter you can actually look at the Elo in this way. First subtract your expected win rate (x 12.5) against each player, then add 12.5 points for each player you beat.

The formula to determine your expected probability of winning is 1/(1+10^((Ra-Rb)/400)).

For simplicity say your Elo difference indicates a 75% chance to beat 2 of the players and a 50% chance to beat the other 2 your expected points earned is .75*12.5*2 + .5*12.5*2 = 31.25. This is the equivalent number of points lost if you don't beat anyone, then for every person you beat you do 12.5 points better than this.

Last place => -31.25 points
4th place => -31.25 + 12.5 = -18.75
3rd place => -31.25 + 25 = -6.25
2nd place => -31.25 + 37.5 = 6.25
1st place => -31.25 + 50 = 19.75

So you can determine your points won or lost without caring which player you beat and which you lost to.
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Call me Ishmael
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Joined: 13 February 2014, 19:06

Re: Metagaming - one way to reduce it

Post by Call me Ishmael »

sprockitz wrote: I think the best you could do is make it less convenient to see another person's Elo.
Yes, I would like it to be made less convenient for ELO to be seen. Incorrigible metagamers might still snoop over to each player's profile to make a list of each player's ELO, but at least it will stop the split-second glance at the top (that currently is) prior to deciding which opponent to attack this turn.

A second way would be to give each player the option to keep ELO hidden.
StratThinker
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Joined: 20 January 2017, 10:04

Re: Metagaming - one way to reduce it

Post by StratThinker »

Call me Ishmael wrote:
sprockitz wrote: I think the best you could do is make it less convenient to see another person's Elo.
Yes, I would like it to be made less convenient for ELO to be seen. Incorrigible metagamers might still snoop over to each player's profile to make a list of each player's ELO, but at least it will stop the split-second glance at the top (that currently is) prior to deciding which opponent to attack this turn.

A second way would be to give each player the option to keep ELO hidden.
I think the interface should automatically do what serious players typically AND easily do. I think that this type of metagaming is a valid strategy and most serious players will be looking at elo's even if it is hidden. So it will be annoying if it was hidden.
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Call me Ishmael
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Joined: 13 February 2014, 19:06

Re: Metagaming - one way to reduce it

Post by Call me Ishmael »

Well, the same way I can conceal my birthday on Facebook, I would like to conceal my ELO on BGA...and if that annoys ELO point-gamers, then there is certainly no love lost on my end. I would prefer to have the right to be able to not play with persons who play for ELO point-gaming.
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