Auf deutsche bitte !

Board Game Arena Official announcements
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sourisdudesert
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Joined: 23 January 2010, 22:02

Re: Auf deutsche bitte !

Post by sourisdudesert »

Hello Pablo,

Thank you very much for your comments and suggestions.

Concerning the "T-V distinction": for the French version of the website, the "vous" (= "Sie" in German) is used everywhere. From my perspective this is appropriate. For the German version I'm open to any suggestion :)
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pablo74
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Joined: 21 November 2011, 18:15

Re: Auf deutsche bitte !

Post by pablo74 »

A short question: what placeholder is ${you} ?
Is it substituted by a username or a pronoun ?

This should be known to find the correct form of the verb.

Best regards,
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sourisdudesert
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Re: Auf deutsche bitte !

Post by sourisdudesert »

Good question:

${you} is a substitute for a pronoun. It is mainly used for the text in the action bar above the game. Examples: "You must buy a card", "You must consume your resources".

${player_name} is a substitute for a username. Example: "Sourisdudesert must buy a card", "Sourisdudesert must consume his resources".

Cheers,
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pablo74
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Joined: 21 November 2011, 18:15

Re: Auf deutsche bitte !

Post by pablo74 »

Thank you for the clarification!
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Nereid
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Joined: 21 August 2011, 14:52

Re: Auf deutsche bitte !

Post by Nereid »

Hi!

First of all, i think this whole community translation project is a very good idea and I'm glad I can help a wonderful platform become even better.

Since I'm a native german speaker, I already have done some string translation myself and I think it works really well. But there are 2 issues, whcih bug me:

1) As mentioned by another user before, I think only native speakers should help translating. There are already a lot of strings "translated", which are really just poor machine translations and are hard to understand, even for a native speaker like me. Yes, I know it's possible to correct other users, but it's just a lot of work to search through all strings and find the ones which are machine translated from the ones which are translated correctly. Maybe it is possible to allow translations only to users, who have set an according language flag in their profile?

2) It's often hard to find a correct interpretation of a string, because there is no context in which the string is used. An example, in which this string is used, would clarify a lot of things. I can give you a few examples, if it would be any help, but I think you know what I mean.

After all, another great feature, keep up the good work!

Greets,
Nereid
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sourisdudesert
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Re: Auf deutsche bitte !

Post by sourisdudesert »

Hello,

I agree that only native German speakers should translate the website. This is exactly the spirit of this system - otherwise we could have used an automatic translation ourselves.

It's difficult to which string is good or bad right now because the German website has not been published yet. It will be the case this week-end (or maybe tomorrow), and then you will be able to see mistakes directly.

Also, the following functionalities will be added:
  • Display only untranslated strings
  • Search a string
  • Context comment (in English, common to all languages)
This is the first time this collaborative translation system is used, then don't hesitate to give your advice and suggestions in order we can improve it for the next translations.

Cheers,
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Lord Nimrod
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Joined: 24 November 2011, 12:52

Re: Auf deutsche bitte !

Post by Lord Nimrod »

Hey there,

interesting translation feature! I hope it works the way you want it to (I have already translated websites from Italian to English and from English to German, and I know it's no easy feat!). I just want to say four things:

1)
As far as the question between "du" und "Sie" goes (informal and formal "you") I must clearly speak for the informal "du".

ALL the games in German use the "du" - all the descriptions, the guides, the manuals, the text on the playing cards, everything is kept in informal writing, using the "du" (and the informal form of the imperative). Having any of that with "Sie" would seem extremely weird to anyone who speaks German, it would stand completely alone amongst all other games (board games, card games, computer and online games) and it would conflict with the German versions of the printed games.

2)
As someone has pointed out before, it is in many cases simple impossible to offer an accurate translation for a single word or half a phrase without the proper context. There were many, many cases where I did enter a translation but could not have been sure if it was really correct (I pointed that out in the respecitve comments). Without knowing the context, many things can't be translated correctly. Knowing (an example) where the word or phrase is used would change that for the most part.

3)
It is very difficult, often impossible to correctly translate a game one doesn't know in the language that one is translating to - and it get's worse when one doesn't even know the game at all. I don't want to cast stones here or make accusations. If I have to point my finger, I'll point it to myself. Yes, I have done this in some cases yesterday and today, because apparently there was no one who was translating some games or prases from a game and hey, German is my mothertongue, there's no such thing as an English sentence that I can't translate into good German. So far, so good. But often that isn't worth much, because there are special elements in almost any game that may have a very special terminology - and often the "dictionary translations" of that aren't even good enough to make someone understand what is meant, and even that would still be far from being a correct translation.
Therefor my appeal: Don't translate a game (with the exception of elements that are obviously universal), if you don't know the game IN GERMAN. Yesterday I translated pretty much all of "Dominion" - which I could not do just because I know how to play "Dominion" and I'm fluent in German, but because I own the German versions of both the base game and "Intrigue". Therefor, I know what the cards are called, and I know the correct terminology for "draw pile" (Nachziehstapel) or "trash a card" (eine Karte entsorgen). Of course, "trash" can be "wegwerfen" in German - but not in "Dominion". Here the "Torturer" is the "Kerkermeister", not the "Folterer", and "treasures" are "Geldkarten", not "Schätze".
I don't know these things for other games, so I will no longer try to guess them or invent my own version, using the "right" German words. Which brings me to the last point I want to mention:

4)
DON'T translate something into German, if you don't know German. I don't want to be mean, and it's nice that you go to so much effort to help the guys from BGA with their translation project - but it doesn't do ANY good.
Yesterday I literally spent hours correcting wrong translations. I am in no way angry at the people who made those wrong translations and I don't mind correcting them - but all the work those people have done was completely pointless. There were very few where there were only some grammatical errors, like a wrong ending - most of them were just totally wrong. Two kinds of them were particularly bad: One, where some elements were translated (incorrectly, in most cases) and others not - I assume this might happen with "internet translations" - and one, where obsure words were used all the time instead of the common (and correct) German words. Again, I guess this is what happens, when someone uses a translation program or an online dictionary. In one case someone even translated "Board Game Arena" multiple times to something like "Vorstand-Spiel-Arena" - in this case one can at least guess, what is meant ("Vorstand" means "board of directors", whereas "board game" would be "Brettspiel" in German). But there were many mistakes that meant something completely different, or, in a large number of cases, made no sense at all. Such translations aren't just not helpful, they are harmful and hinder the process of creating a correct translation of a website.


In conclusion: Maybe there should be some ground rules for the conduct of these translations, but most importantly, people that don't know the language or a game need to exert self-restraint here.

Lord Nimrod
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sourisdudesert
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Re: Auf deutsche bitte !

Post by sourisdudesert »

Hi everyone,

I totally agree with the previous post from Lord Nimrod. A warning will be added on top of translation module to specify that only native speakers and players of the corresponding games should translate a game.

Thank you.
Sourisdudesert
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Silozius
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Joined: 07 April 2010, 20:08

Re: Auf deutsche bitte !

Post by Silozius »

Hi,

My feeling is that these translation issues come from the rewarding process which gives BGA club membership to translators. It motivates some people to contribute with numerous poor translations. Also, the persons who are really doing the hard job now are not rewarded, because they are just modifying (in fact correcting) translations.

An easy and hopefully efficient solution would be to give rewards only for good enough translations. Typically, one could consider only translations which are not corrected for a given period (say a week). There is still the risk however that some people are just adding and/or removing a comma to be considered as the last good translator.

Has anyone any good solution to propose both to avoid unproductive translations and to reward people actually doing the hard/tedious work?

Cheers,
Silozius
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Fristi
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Joined: 30 June 2010, 23:56

Re: Auf deutsche bitte !

Post by Fristi »

Hello !

I don't really agree with this motivation : I think the first motivation is to contribute to a website you like and the reward is only a bonus.

Translating 100 strings is quite an important job for a native speaker.
It becomes a really huge job for a non native speaker. Strings with only one or two words can be translated pretty fast, however I can spend 3 or 5 minutes to translate a whole sentence. I spent something like 3 hours to translate only 92 strings. The reward for 100 strings is 1 month membership that only costs 2 euros, it totally doesn't worth it for a non native speaker and that was not my motivation at all (if it was I would have translated 8 more! ;) ).

I translated a few strings because I was enthusiastic about the system, so I wanted to try this system and help a little, and for me because I thought it was a good occasion to practice my german, eventhough I had to do a lot of researchs before proposing a translation :
- I didn't copy from an automatic translator
- for a specific word that has several translations, I had to search in which case you have to use which translation,
- for each noun I had to check the gender (der / die / das) and the declension,
- I had to check if some words had to be put together in german (for example "combinaison de cartes" is "Kartenkombination")
- I can't translate everything, I am not able to translate strings with specific vocabulary referring to a certain game
- I noticed that german native speakers can translate about 5 or 10 times faster than I do

However I still did a few mistakes, for example I used the "Sie" instead of "du", because in french it seems very natural to use the formal "vous", instead of the "tu" in a website, then I thought it would have been the same in german.
I'm sorry for those mistakes and I won't propose other translations anymore.

I am happy that some of my translations were not modified, I didn't do everything wrong 8-) , but after reading these messages, I must agree that only native speakers should do the job.

Anyway I'd like to ask a little question to the german native speakers :
What is the correct rule for the "ss" or the "ß"?
I can see both of them in german websites, but I see the ß more often, so I used it in my translations.
However, some translations were modified and the only modification was to replace the ß by ss (for example muß => muss).
This is only curiosity : as I wrote I won't propose other translations anymore.

Fristi
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