Harbor and small warf combo

[segi0000]

Hi,

I cant find in rules scoring whith harbor and small warf, but i think that you shold only get 1 vp for harbor when you ship whith small warf. This scoring when you get 1 vp on harbor for every different kind of good shipped whith small warf is just to much. For example this combo is more valued then harbor and warf.

[Liallan]

Even with the Small Whart, that's still considered one load for a shipment, i.e. loading 2 sugar and 2 tobacco is not two loads. Harbor says each time the player "loads goods." I'd consider Wharf or Small Wharf "a load" per turn.

Not only would that be kind of ridiculous in terms of points, it would be difficult to even figure out. If you had 1 sugar, 1 coffee and 2 tobacco, giving an extra point per good type would mean 1 pt for sugar, 1 pt for coffee and 1 pt per tobacco. The sugar and coffee would only be getting 1/2 pt each to start with, so a bonus of 1 each seems outrageous, and therefore makes no sense. I think the intent behind Harbor is you get an extra point each turn when you ship, regardless of what you ship. Small Wharf would not have existed at the time, but I don't think that addition with expansion would change the intent. (It also seems logical to me that allowing only 1/2 point per good is to keep this building from getting out of hand, so it doesn't make sense to then have Harbor get out of hand when combined with it.)

(That would be my interpretation. I can only find one thread on BGG about it: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/83 ... mall-wharf )

But your post is somewhat implying that the implementation here is giving 1 pt per good type, rather than 1 pt for the shipment as a whole. I've not played this here. If that's what it's doing, that seems very wrong to me.

[segi0000]

Yes here is 1 vp for every different good type, and i think too that is wrong

[Een]

Yes here is 1 vp for every different good type, and i think too that is wrong

Please check out the bugs, from memory this has been discussed there. If the bug is still open or confirmed, please vote for it, otherwise check out the answer.

[Liallan]

I checked the bugs. It's impossible to vote for them because they were all marked by you as "not a bug." But I would disagree. (And I spent quite a bit of time looking all this up.) I did post on the one bug report, a shorter version of what I'm posting here, since those were basically closed.

https://en.boardgamearena.com/#!bug?id=5186
https://en.boardgamearena.com/#!bug?id=6748
I cannot open the links provided in those two reports.

https://en.boardgamearena.com/#!bug?id=8376
The link in this one I was able to open, which leads to exactly what someone else linked to. This is a set of Rio Grande rules c.2002/2011, which is a re-write of the original with the expansion added on. I have the original 2002 rules, and the only expansion rules I have are here: http://riograndegames.com/games.html?id=159. This is not very "polished," but I read somewhere that the expansion was originally put out in some German magazine, and that might be the rules that went with it. These are the rules I referred to myself when I posted above.

But I went through the link you provided in that last bug report. Under Harbor (pg. 10) it says "Each time, during the captain phase, the owner of an occupied harbor loads goods on a cargo ship, he earns one extra VP." (stress mine) The example that follows does not mention "types" of goods at all, and while it provides an example combined with Wharf, there is no example combined with Small Wharf. It does not say what you quoted in the bug reports. I also started at the top and did a search for "harbor" to see where there might be extra information. I found none. All other references are just minor, not related things.

Your quote of the Harbor included the phrase "good type." I did a search for that as well, and the only references are for the warehouses. Nothing related to the harbor, or to either of the wharfs, including the examples. (Literally, when I hit "next" it just jumped back and forth between the small and large warehouses.)

I also searched Lighthouse - you quoted that as saying "type of good." I can't find that either. It says it's "similar" to the Harbor, except it's doubloons instead of VPs. Nothing about good types.

In other words, what you quoted simply does not exist in the rules you linked to. If I had to guess, I would just say maybe the rules changed somewhere along the way, as we know happens. But the expansion rules I have seem old, so not sure exactly when they would have changed. (I am not, of course, saying you made that up. But I am pretty curious where that came from, when I followed your link and it doesn't exist.)

In the end, I simply can't find your version of those rules anywhere.

The only thing I could find on BGG was this: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/9664421#9664421. Unfortunately it's just a comment from one guy, but no one refuted him. And I did a search on there as well, looked through all references, and see no other questions about the Small Wharf, meaning... no one is asking. I usually take rules as literally as possible (and am right 98% of the time - yes, I made that % up ), and my interpretation was "per shipment" meaning the entire shipment. If a shipping line loaded shipments for various companies, the company would be making "a shipment" or have "a load" regardless of how many different items were in the shipment. If they had, say, 4 cartons of one product, 2 cartons of another, and 5 cartons of another, I would consider it all one load going onto the ship.

That said, if you changed the rules now, it might freak out some people who are used to it the way it is.

[Een]

So I remembered well about already answering this point

You are right, it seems that Ravensburger changed their website and this PDF rulebook is now missing. This is annoying, we now don't have a working reference link for the expansions on the game page. I hope someone will find another one and put it there.

Anyway, there is still a Google cache version of this file here (without images, but you'll find the text I quoted).
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... %25201.pdf

[DrKarotte]

Maybe this is simply not translated very well from the original (German I suppose)?

The German text on the harbour makes quite clear that you get one extra point per shipment action. There is an example: You have 5 tobacco and put three on a ship which is full then (3+1 points) and after that you ship the remainder with your wharf (2+1 points).

There is no hint at all concerning good types in the texts on harbour, wharf, small wharf and lighthouse.

[Een]

Maybe this is simply not translated very well from the original (German I suppose)?

The German text on the harbour makes quite clear that you get one extra point per shipment action. There is an example: You have 5 tobacco and put three on a ship which is full then (3+1 points) and after that you ship the remainder with your wharf (2+1 points).

There is no hint at all concerning good types in the texts on harbour, wharf, small wharf and lighthouse.

Maybe, but are we speaking about the same rules version? The one we used as a reference is the consolidated rule with both expansions and the new art for the game, that is as far as I know the most up to date. It can also be something that has been clarified in the latest version.

[diamant]

Maybe, but are we speaking about the same rules version? The one we used as a reference is the consolidated rule with both expansions and the new art for the game, that is as far as I know the most up to date. It can also be something that has been clarified in the latest version.

Puerto Rico is an Andreas Seyfarth's game, a german author, and its last version with the 2 extensions and the illustrated tiles is published by Ravensburger, a german company. Therefore, the reference rules are the german ones, i.e. the rules you can find here (4.2 MB pdf).

These german rules say :

"Hafen
Jedes Mal, wenn der Besitzer eines Hafens während einer Kapitänphase Waren
verlädt, erhält er dafür einen Siegpunkt mehr."

This sentence is perfectly clear : one load, one victory point more with the harbor. When you have also the small warf, you can use it only for a single load, and so you get only one victory point more with the harbor during the captain phase, no matter what goods were loaded with the small warf (this includes loading a single good).

[Een]

Maybe, but are we speaking about the same rules version? The one we used as a reference is the consolidated rule with both expansions and the new art for the game, that is as far as I know the most up to date. It can also be something that has been clarified in the latest version.

Puerto Rico is an Andreas Seyfarth's game, a german author, and its last version with the 2 extensions and the illustrated tiles is published by Ravensburger, a german company. Therefore, the reference rules are the german ones, i.e. the rules you can find here (4.2 MB pdf).

These german rules say :

"Hafen
Jedes Mal, wenn der Besitzer eines Hafens während einer Kapitänphase Waren
verlädt, erhält er dafür einen Siegpunkt mehr."

This sentence is perfectly clear : one load, one victory point more with the harbor. When you have also the small warf, you can use it only for a single load, and so you get only one victory point more with the harbor during the captain phase, no matter what goods were loaded with the small warf (this includes loading a single good).

Your link leads to an error page.

Also, when I talked about rules version, I was not referring to language but to different successive versions of the rules. There have been successive editions of Puerto Rico in German also. So if someone wants to point out a translation problem, we should be sure that we are talking about the same exact version being translated. Otherwise, it may just be that the latest edition of the rules (in German as well as other languages) is more precise than the earlier versions on this.

In the current state of what I know, the BGA implementation is in line with the English rules of the latest edition.