Change of rules suggestion for tie breakers and 2 players

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JCase16
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Joined: 26 June 2015, 19:07

Change of rules suggestion for tie breakers and 2 players

Postby JCase16 » 29 January 2019, 17:28

I would like to make 2 suggestions to make this game more balanced.

1: Make the tie breaker related to playing position first and then go to investigators. So, if you played 3 rounds in a two player game then the person who had to go first twice would win because they were at the disadvantage of going first. If it were a five player game, then each round would give a bonus of some amount decreasing to the first four players each round. So MAYBE first player is allocated 4 tie breaker points, then 2nd gets 3, 3rd gets 2, and fourth gets 1. Fifth gets 0 for the benefit of going last. And these only apply if a tie occurs at the end and the game calculates which of the winning players has more tie breaker points. If still tied then go to investigators.

2: I would like to either be able to choose the number of rounds played in a game or force 2 player to be 2 or 4 rounds. It eliminates the issue completely about who has to go first 2 times while the other only goes once. I feel this would be very beneficial in tournaments especially. Going first in a 2 player tournament sucks because you are at an immediate disadvantage.

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fa81
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Re: Change of rules suggestion for tie breakers and 2 players

Postby fa81 » 03 February 2019, 00:30

I can see that, especially in the tournament context

What is BGA's official stance regarding variants? If I remember correctly from the developer docs, non-official variants (house rules) are generally discouraged unless the original author or publisher approved them.

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diamant
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Re: Change of rules suggestion for tie breakers and 2 players

Postby diamant » 03 February 2019, 01:14

JCase16 wrote:I would like to make 2 suggestions to make this game more balanced.
I don't play P.I. with two players. However, if a game is really unbalanced in that configuration, the classic method is to play matches of 2 games, rather than single games.
Then, we must find an acceptable way to determine the winner of each match.

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JCase16
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Re: Change of rules suggestion for tie breakers and 2 players

Postby JCase16 » 04 February 2019, 18:05

diamant wrote:
JCase16 wrote:I would like to make 2 suggestions to make this game more balanced.
I don't play P.I. with two players. However, if a game is really unbalanced in that configuration, the classic method is to play matches of 2 games, rather than single games.
Then, we must find an acceptable way to determine the winner of each match.


The problem is that BGA doesn't support that either. I would love a heavily revamped tournament section. If it worked the way that most people have recommended and how I believe BGA owners want it to work then I would be willing to pay for this. Tournaments are the most fun part of BGA to me when I don't accidentally strand myself in a 12hr tournament with players on the other side of the world :D

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Een
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Re: Change of rules suggestion for tie breakers and 2 players

Postby Een » 05 February 2019, 10:01

JCase16 wrote:I would love a heavily revamped tournament section. If it worked the way that most people have recommended and how I believe BGA owners want it to work then I would be willing to pay for this.


Hey I answered the "if BGA did this I would support it" meme already! (viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12777#p46381)

Quoting me: (please forgive me, I don't do that often :D)

Een wrote:I'll address this comment also since it comes up from time to time in this forum: please don't say things like "if BGA did this I would support it", as it's almost the same thing as saying "if BGA was perfect I would support it" which is of course impossible :)

If you like what we do and if you can afford it, please support us, then we may be able to do more. You know, we try to have a very affordable subscription price: just taking the time to look into a suggestion, making a decision (positive or negative) and writing a clear response about it actually takes quite some time that can quickly amount to the price of one yearly subscription.


An "heavily revamped tournament section" would be an huge amount of work. It may not be easy to realize from a player point of view but this is one of the most complex module of BGA. It doesn't mean that it will never happen, but it's really a big piece of work.

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JCase16
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Re: Change of rules suggestion for tie breakers and 2 players

Postby JCase16 » 05 February 2019, 21:07

Thanks Een. I am a subscriber as is my wife. However, what I mean is I would be willing to put money down on a gofundme/kickstarter or similar to fund an effort to make this happen. I fully realize it would be a big deal. I'm a developer so I do get that this is a pretty involved thing. I think these types of features could be presented as crowdfunded projects. I wonder how many of us would be willing to drop a decent amount of money to make these things happen. Just a thought. Sorry if I inferred that I would be willing to subscribe if that were in. I meant more than that.

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Een
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Re: Change of rules suggestion for tie breakers and 2 players

Postby Een » 05 February 2019, 23:23

Alright, sorry that I misunderstood! Indeed if you are a developer you must have a good idea :)
Yes, it would be interesting to know if players would be willing to crowdfund some features. But from what I have seen crowdfunding mostly works to fund concrete shippable rewards. Which is perfectly understandable.
And thanks a lot for supporting us!

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RicardoRix
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Re: Change of rules suggestion for tie breakers and 2 players

Postby RicardoRix » 11 February 2019, 14:12

I don't agree with the who goes first bias, everyone gets the same number of turns, you'll need to go deeper to prove that.

I don't think the scoring system is very good however for 2 players, it makes much more sense to me with 3 and 4 players and I think that's potentially where it comes from, this game is designed primarily to be played multiplayer. You can of course play it 2 player if you like. The luck factor of the cards and placing your investigators and getting big hits also points to this game not being taken too seriously on a competitive level. Certainly who goes 2nd more times is way down on the 'things to fix to make this more competitive game' list. Take the rough with the smooth as with most games that have an element of luck to them.

I'm guessing that the scenario you are thinking is that Player1 goes out after 7 turns and now P2 has the option to guess the answer and at-least try to save the round score, whereas the other way round there is no choice, he's already out of the round. However taking the guess comes with a risk of -2 points and move further behind than just 7-0. The -2 does make a big strategic difference to the leader now, and I don't think it's a choice Player 2 should take lightly. The odds of the decision are also only in his favour if it's a 50-50 guess, 1 in 3 or worse and it really doesn't seem like a good play. BUT if it's the last round of the game then it's a possibly a free guess to save the whole game. It's possible however that the tournament format does take into account the score difference and if so then it's not necessarily a free guess at all. Likelihood of all this occurring is probably small and a marginal gain at best. In a tournament you're going to get roughly the same 2nd's and 1st's. If they haven't fixed it in chess, then they're not going to fix it here.

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JCase16
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Re: Change of rules suggestion for tie breakers and 2 players

Postby JCase16 » 11 February 2019, 17:53

RicardoRix wrote:I don't agree with the who goes first bias, everyone gets the same number of turns, you'll need to go deeper to prove that.


The second player gets more information if player one goes out almost every time. Often, the simple fact that someone knows what is their's tells you what they believed or knew wasn't theirs. So not only do I get the ability to guess after they go down which can be risky but I also learn from what he didn't guess. So many times the fact that he knew what his crime was and it didn't seem that he had a 50/50 on it makes me believe that the other is probably mine if it was in the mix. Player 2 almost always has more information than player one even if it is minor.Player two also, like you said, has the opportunity to surprise player 1 by going out before they realize they have enough information. It's imbalanced even if only slightly.

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RicardoRix
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Re: Change of rules suggestion for tie breakers and 2 players

Postby RicardoRix » 11 February 2019, 18:56

JCase16 wrote: So many times the fact that he knew what his crime was and it didn't seem that he had a 50/50 on it makes me believe that the other is probably mine if it was in the mix.


So only if Player1 has gone out first, and ONLY if they've used the logic of knowing your cards in their deduction will this help you. If instead they guessed and got it right you are now inferring information which is a red-herring, and most importantly you will not be able to know the difference. I wouldn't call that much (if any) of an advantage.


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