I'm really questioning the Arena point system

Discussions about BGA (all languages)
Forum rules
Warning: challenging a moderation in Forum = 10 days ban
More info & details about how to challenge a moderation: viewtopic.php?p=119756
Locked
User avatar
Pistolero
Posts: 61
Joined: 12 February 2017, 01:39

I'm really questioning the Arena point system

Post by Pistolero »

We have an interresting case for 7Wonders where I'm tied with another player at 1769 points. I'd like to know if the following is normal. If you take our respective last 2 games, you see he won +11 versus very low ranked opponents (elite versus platitum + gold), while I got +12 versus higher ranked players (elite versus elite + diamond).

Here are the links to the games:
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=77183452
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=76702384

Don't you think there is something flawed with the way the points are computed ? And if you check the last games from that player, you see a common pattern which consists of repeatedly playing against very weak players to grind enough points to reach the first place. Is it really what the first player should be ? Someone who grinds points versus weak players but cannot face strong ones ?
Now, this post is really not to target that player nor to give me more points. The player probably authorizes everyone to join his table, and it's entirely his free choice.
This post is because I do believe there is something fundamentally wrong with how you implemented the ranking system.
To take an example, do you really think that the best football team of division 1 is the team that keep beatings other teams from division 3, but rarely plays versus other division 1 team ?
This grinding pattern versus weak players is easy to find amongst some other "high-ranked" players.
In my opinion, this completely invalidates the utmost point of the Arena, which is to establish the greatest player. As a competitive player, this really upsets me because I restrict myself to play only versus Elite and diamonds (which is how a real competition should be), where I lose more often because those players are of course stronger. But in the end, you just have proof that to grind points, you just have to allow access to low-ranked players and keep beating them.
Last edited by Pistolero on 21 April 2020, 08:26, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
dschingis27
Posts: 745
Joined: 27 June 2015, 18:30

Re: I'm really questioning the Arena point system

Post by dschingis27 »

First, if you talk about outcomes of specific example matches, please link to those matches, it makes it easier to validate your point. :)

Second, I get your point. I think (or hope) that the site admins are well aware that the current EAS system is not optimal and I hope there will be something better in some future. The current Arena mode favors heavy grinding too much (which I can understand is in part intended, but I think it's too heavily weighted towards grinding).

Third, I think we already established a common understanding on this site that determining "the greatest player" should be done in a tournament of the Top X players. Arena mode is just a mild proxy for this without the constraints of tournaments like the need to schedule games. It is more an achievement mode that is fun for many and it offers you a nice seasonal challenge. As far as I know, the admins are already working on the tournament mode so that determining the best player will be more streamlined in the future.

Fouth, grinding against low-level players can get you only so far. Once EAS goes above 1800 and higher, the matches against 1500 EAS will give you a net loss in the long run because wins give you just like <5 EAS points and losses will be devastating. So the final champion will most definitely have to win many games against good-to-high ranked players. When the season goes on and higher leagues fill up, I suspect that Elite players won't be matched vs Bronze players that often whatsoever.

The value of grinding low-level players is particularly strong at season beginning when everyone starts with flat 1500 EAS. One solution could be to calculate EAS gained or lost from opponents in their first X Arena matches also from their Elo. E.g. make it pure Elo-based in the first 10 matches, some deviation of EAS based on Elo in matches 11-20 and only then after game 20 fully EAS-based calculation because only then it reflects some mildly reasonable rating of an opponent.
User avatar
Pistolero
Posts: 61
Joined: 12 February 2017, 01:39

Re: I'm really questioning the Arena point system

Post by Pistolero »

I agree with everything except "grinding can get you only so far".

We can see the same for the current #1 ELO player:(here are his last grinding games)
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=71758577
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=70818338
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=70816510
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=70813603
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=70810643
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=71758577

Amongst all those games, the highest opponents have 330 and 242 ELO, all the other opponents are lower than 200.
I consider the "all time ELO" as the Arena season with time going to infinity, since, in the end, all players reach Elite because there is no downgrade. The Elite League becomes simply the regular ELO ranking, and the only difference is that you cannot really choose your opponents.

I think one way to balance this is to force top20 players to play only between themselves. A simple algorythm would do. And you can enable turn-by-turn games so that those players can play with players from different time zones.
Locked

Return to “Discussions”