Unfair rules at draw games

[dschingis27]

And even if a tie happens in football, both of the teams gets 1 point. Otherwise you might as well say, that the weaker team won 1-1!

In football we have the league system or cups which are totally different to the rating done on BGA. Both Elo and EAS are thought of as skill ratings and if you tie with a weaker player then you performed worse than expected which means your skill rating should go down. The system allows comparison between players with many different numbers of matches.

The football league system and cups only work because you have a scheduled match plan and a system behind it. On BGA everyone can play everytime so we need a different system.

[aesche]

Sprockitz / dschingis: As if ELO merely were a function of skill.
It‘s heavily influenced by activity / opponent availability / opponent selection / pre-skills / ELO mgmt (lots of actually good players throw games to keep their ELO/winrate down, to then kill some beatable top players) / (luck in games where this is involved) / ...

In a system where a top player can win 0-1 pts vs the majority of available players, and at the same time in a game that by default ends in a draw when noone makes a mistake, I just dont think it‘s ok to take 8 or more points for a draw.

[LuxuryJesper]

if you are agreeing on a tie or a tie is 'forced' it is nonetheless a tie.

if it is a tie that means both players played equally well, which means that your ratings should move closer to each other.

By "tiebreakers", do you mean that the game automatically turns into a tie, after a certain amount of time or moves? That's the impression I got, from what you wrote. - If that's the case (it happens automatically), then it is FORCED upon the players. If two players on the other hand are stuck, then they AGREE with each other on a tie.

I don't get your second point. How is it fair that rating move closer between two players, if they have played equally well? That doesn't make any sense.

[LuxuryJesper]

And even if a tie happens in football, both of the teams gets 1 point. Otherwise you might as well say, that the weaker team won 1-1!

In football we have the league system or cups which are totally different to the rating done on BGA. Both Elo and EAS are thought of as skill ratings and if you tie with a weaker player then you performed worse than expected which means your skill rating should go down. The system allows comparison between players with many different numbers of matches.

The football league system and cups only work because you have a scheduled match plan and a system behind it. On BGA everyone can play everytime so we need a different system.

Let me point out, that it was the user Jest Phulin, who tried to compare a game on BGA to a league (which is ridiculous). I didn't bring it up, I only responded to his comment.

It doesn't make any sense, that one player benefits from a draw. Otherwise, it basically isn't a draw. Then (as I wrote previously) you might as well say, that the weaker player won a draw(!). How that makes any sense to you, I have no idea...

[sprockitz]

if you are agreeing on a tie or a tie is 'forced' it is nonetheless a tie.

if it is a tie that means both players played equally well, which means that your ratings should move closer to each other.

By "tiebreakers", do you mean that the game automatically turns into a tie, after a certain amount of time or moves? That's the impression I got, from what you wrote. - If that's the case (it happens automatically), then it is FORCED upon the players. If two players on the other hand are stuck, then they AGREE with each other on a tie.

I don't get your second point. How is it fair that rating move closer between two players, if they have played equally well? That doesn't make any sense.

It doesn't matter how the tie occurs. If a game ends in a tie that means the players were equal in that game. it makes a lot of sense that ratings move closer to each other in case of a tie...if two players are equal skill they will tie often (insomuch as ties are a probable outcome for a given game) so if you are tying your rating should reflect that fact.

[Jest Phulin]

Let me point out, that it was the user Jest Phulin, who tried to compare a game on BGA to a league (which is ridiculous). I didn't bring it up, I only responded to his comment.

It doesn't make any sense, that one player benefits from a draw. Otherwise, it basically isn't a draw. Then (as I wrote previously) you might as well say, that the weaker player won a draw(!). How that makes any sense to you, I have no idea...

As I said, the comments would be about how the team expected to lose did well, or how the team expected to win did poorly.

I know you mentioned you don't like the word "expected" in this situation, but it is appropriate. If Manchester United played my local high school team, I'm pretty sure people would say that one team was expected to win.

League match play is based on all teams playing each other (or at least all teams with a pool playing each other, and the best from the pool advancing to a pool containing members from several pools). ELO is a different system. ELO needs to compare A and B, when they never played each other but they did each play against C, D, and E. If A wins against C, D, and E, where B loses against them, it is reasonable to assume that A would beat B. Therefore A would be ranked higher.

Now, as sprockkitz keeps pointing out, if A and B did play each other and tied, their rankings should move closer to each other. This can be done one of three ways. If B's ranking was raised significantly, they would benefit greatly although they did not win a game. If A's ranking was dropped significantly, they would suffer although they did not lose a game. So, A is dropped moderately and B is raised moderately.

[fafa-fr]

if it is a tie that means both players played equally well, which means that your ratings should move closer to each other.

I don't get your second point. How is it fair that rating move closer between two players, if they have played equally well? That doesn't make any sense.

I'm not sure if you're speaking about elo in general or about arena rank in elite league. But if you're speaking about elo, you may have missed one point: elo is NOT meant to be a reward, to be considered as a benefit. Elo is meant to be an indication of your skills. This is of course approximative for several reasons, but elo changes after a game are not meant to give you a reward, they just try to adjust your elo to your actual "skill level" (don't know if it's the proper words in english). So if you played equally well with another player, it suggests that you may be equally skilled, so it totally makes sense that the elo adjustments tend to make your elo closer to each other.

If you're looking for rewards, benefits, don't look at elo changes, look at your results: draw games in which you had a higher elo are not counted as lost games.

[kam2015]

Its amazing that why doesn't correct the programmer of this game , when there are many complicated games that have been corrected soon !

Unfortunately some guys are bothering another players and don't accept draw with clicking it , goal to force to concede another members

that I think it's very unfair , anyway two important draw rules must be corrected , 1 - 50 moves without capturing and 2 - three moves

repeating or three folded rule . Please correct it in this session ARENA too . many thanks BGA