Pythia v1.3 - visual aid helper for 7 Wonders BGA

[Foppeke]

You might think that this is one of the required skill and I respect and understand that, but I also have the right to think that this memorization is just a waste of computation time. So now the question if whether the vast majority of players think like you and in this case the variant with Pythia would be completely useless, or whether some players would think tournaments with Pythia enabled would be still a good challenge.

(For the record, I also respect your opinion and your answer was very clear )

The memory part is a skill, but indeed not the most 'fun' part, but I accept it when I want to play 7wonders. So it's a -intended- part of the game. I like 7wonders as a complete game how it is now. So for me, a new variant (pythia variant) is not needed.

If it was possible to enable/disable it on BGA. So REALLY play it as a variant, I would have nothing against it. I will just play the variant with Pythia OFF.

The potential problem there would be that BGA 'thinks' they should add it to the Arena. So it would mean the 'competetive' variant will become the Pythia variant. And if I want to play Arena I'm (again) forced to play Pythia7wonders.

I'm not sure how that would hurt the game , the vast majority will probably not care.
The 7wonder addicts and/or top players WILL care. But it's clear their opponion is not important to BGA anyway.
This is easily shown in other topics that are neglected by BGA.
I don't understand either why BGA hasn't reacted on Pythia either.

[Tisaac]

You might think that this is one of the required skill and I respect and understand that, but I also have the right to think that this memorization is just a waste of computation time. So now the question if whether the vast majority of players think like you and in this case the variant with Pythia would be completely useless, or whether some players would think tournaments with Pythia enabled would be still a good challenge.

(For the record, I also respect your opinion and your answer was very clear )

Thank you ! I was starting to wonder if my english was so bad (as a non native speaker) that people would misunderstand what I was trying to say.

The memory part is a skill, but indeed not the most 'fun' part, but I accept it when I want to play 7wonders. So it's a -intended- part of the game. I like 7wonders as a complete game how it is now. So for me, a new variant (pythia variant) is not needed.

If it was possible to enable/disable it on BGA. So REALLY play it as a variant, I would have nothing against it. I will just play the variant with Pythia OFF.

The potential problem there would be that BGA 'thinks' they should add it to the Arena. So it would mean the 'competetive' variant will become the Pythia variant. And if I want to play Arena I'm (again) forced to play Pythia7wonders.

I'm not sure how that would hurt the game , the vast majority will probably not care.
The 7wonder addicts and/or top players WILL care. But it's clear their opponion is not important to BGA anyway.
This is easily shown in other topics that are neglected by BGA.
I don't understand either why BGA hasn't reacted on Pythia either.

Yeah of course this would have to be a variant and I believe Arena should stay with the "normal" mode. But as you said, it looks like BGA admins usually listen more to the majority of players rather than to the top players (which can be understandable in some sense). That's why I think the question about Pytha is really about what the vast majority of players would think about playing this variant.
For the absence of BGA reaction, that was in fact why I dind't create another topic for discussing more closely "memorization and 7Wonders" as I was hoping to make this thread hot and bring attention.

[Foppeke]

Well if this topic doesn't bring attention to BGA..no other topics for 7 wonders will.
With the amount of reactions, the 7wonders community did everything they could I guess

[yellososus]

You are actually defending my case here : aimbot in FPS games kills the game since FPS is (almost) only about aiming, just as a memorization tool for the memory would also kills the game. So you are saying Pythia would kill 7Wonders since 7Wonders is only about memory ?...
Again please read the previous comments to see what the discussion is really about.

Can you stop using fault logic and plain propaganda and also stop twisting my words?

In my post I said FPS games are so much more than aiming... please read then understand then argue, cause this is getting pretty annoying.

But since you have troubles understanding:

1. FPS is more than aim, aim is one of the skills (just like 7 wonders is more than memory but memory is a skill)
2. Aimbot eliminates one of the skills from the game that some people don't enjoy (just like pythia eliminates one of the skill that some people don't enjoy)
3. Aimbot is using computing power to help people with that (just like pythia is using computing power to help with that)
4. Aimbot is widely considered cheating (just like pythia by majority of the players in this thread)
5. There are still people who defend aimbotting and are doing that (just like pythia)

Is that clear enough?

[Tisaac]

You are actually defending my case here : aimbot in FPS games kills the game since FPS is (almost) only about aiming, just as a memorization tool for the memory would also kills the game. So you are saying Pythia would kill 7Wonders since 7Wonders is only about memory ?...
Again please read the previous comments to see what the discussion is really about.

Can you stop using fault logic and plain propaganda and also stop twisting my words?

In my post I said FPS games are so much more than aiming... please read then understand then argue, cause this is getting pretty annoying.

But since you have troubles understanding:

1. FPS is more than aim, aim is one of the skills (just like 7 wonders is more than memory but memory is a skill)
2. Aimbot eliminates one of the skills from the game that some people don't enjoy (just like pythia eliminates one of the skill that some people don't enjoy)
3. Aimbot is using computing power to help people with that (just like pythia is using computing power to help with that)
4. Aimbot is widely considered cheating (just like pythia by majority of the players in this thread)
5. There are still people who defend aimbotting and are doing that (just like pythia)

Is that clear enough?

Believe me, I really tring my best understanding what your arguing about but your other one sentence post make it really hard to me.
I'm still not sure what your argument is about, are you saying :
- if someone use Pythia without other knows it, then its cheating ? If yes, as I've said before, I think we all agree on that (your sentence "there are still people who defend aimbotting" is ambigous => are you saying they defend using aimbot in a regular mode or just saying that FPS with aimbot is still an interesting game ?)
- no-one should use a tool that remove skills from a game ? If yes, why ? As long as all the participants agree with this variant, what the issue ?

I didn't know there were some people that like to play FPS tournament with aimbotting, but as long as everyone in the tournament is ok with that, then what the problem with that ?

[yellososus]

Believe me, I really tring my best understanding what your arguing about but your other one sentence post make it really hard to me.
I'm still not sure what your argument is about, are you saying :
- if someone use Pythia without other knows it, then its cheating ? If yes, as I've said before, I think we all agree on that (your sentence "there are still people who defend aimbotting" is ambigous => are you saying they defend using aimbot in a regular mode or just saying that FPS with aimbot is still an interesting game ?)
- no-one should use a tool that remove skills from a game ? If yes, why ? As long as all the participants agree with this variant, what the issue ?

I didn't know there were some people that like to play FPS tournament with aimbotting, but as long as everyone in the tournament is ok with that, then what the problem with that ?

I think I can understand as it gets hard to follow you as well. So I'll try to be as precise as possible:

1. We all agree than that using Pythia now is cheating, that's what I got from your last post.
2. "Noone should use tool that remove skills from the game" - I don't agree with this 100%, what I am trying to say:
a) no one should force the tool to be widely used
b) you can use it in your in house game as long as you like, but don't bring cheats to the public
3. If everyone has aimbot it is fine

But there is a point that I think escape you:
Right now we are in scenario where cheating is possible, hard to detect by other players and not easy to punish. That state was brought to us by the author of pythia. This is the worst state (fortunately not a lot of people have downloaded it - only 10 and the number is constant it is not growing in last days).

And I am against making this the default mod, as it removes the skill from the game that people enjoy (me for example). BTW if you are removing memory, why not remove strategy by having someone else play for you? Would that still be ok for you?

[dschingis27]

To add some trivia to this thread: I just discovered that Antoine Bauza is the author of both 7Wonders and Hanabi and according to BGAs first release note of Hanabi, he was involved in approving the BGA adaptation of Hanabi that includes permanent card markers. (I know this doesn't say too much but it gives hope that the original 7W designer wouldn't be against a Pyt* variant and that there already must have been discussions with BGA admins about a similar topic for another popular game.)

[yellososus]

Competitive vs cooperative. Hanabi is totally useless in this example.

[Ferics]

Hey everyone. I went through most of the issues brought up in this thread and wrote an FAQ in a form of a mini-interview. I have also added it to the first post. Happy to answer other questions and analyze other comparisons of Pythia to cheats and hacks.


FAQ
Q: Isn't this cheating?
Not exactly and also depends on how you define cheating.

...

This FAQ is absolutely hilarious...

Guys, please stop using analogies with other games. It only comforts Tadacchini that he thinks he's right. "No it's not exactly like chess, like FPS, etc. so it's not cheating. Since you're wrong, then I'm right !" (yes there are not the exact same things, these are analogies, by definition)

Pythia gives you an external and quite important edge that other players don't have. Simple.
In the real 7W board game, can you see the cards you passed to your neighbours ? No. You have to remember cause it's part of the game, drafting and wheeling cards.

If you think you have difficulties to memorize things, just train and improve yourself, it's rewarding ! We live in a world of lazy people.

If everyone at the table agree to use Pythia, I have no problem with it though. It may even become an option when creating tables for 7W in bga.

At least, I'm glad to see that the vast majority of the players are against it.

[Tulivuori]

use technology to help

This says it all. Cheating.