Please put a price on Concede Button

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Gulchen
Posts: 220
Joined: 01 October 2017, 06:55

Re: Please put a price on Concede Button

Post by Gulchen »

Is this proposal just for games in which

there are more than 2 players
and/or
the margin of win/loss affects elo

?


For 2-player games in which the margin of win/loss does not affect elo,
I strongly agree with ​ ​ ​ CB Droege ​ ’s ​ ​ ​ conclusion:

Conceding such a ​ “game is always okay. No exceptions."
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Jest Phulin
Posts: 1856
Joined: 08 July 2013, 21:50

Re: Please put a price on Concede Button

Post by Jest Phulin »

Gulchen wrote: 23 September 2020, 06:38 Is this proposal just for games in which

there are more than 2 players
and/or
the margin of win/loss affects elo
Concede is only available for 2-player games. You cannot concede in a game with 3 or more players.
There is no game on BGA where the margin of win/loss affects ELO. ELO was developed for chess, where the final score is always 1-0, 0.5-0.5, or 0-1.
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receh
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Joined: 10 October 2012, 08:04

Re: Please put a price on Concede Button

Post by receh »

CB Droege wrote: 22 September 2020, 17:35 Even conceding on the final turn is not bad sportsmanship. It's just saying "Okay. You win. This is done" Which is fine. Just because you wanted to put down your last stone or whatever, and that would've made you feel better, doesn't give you the rights to even one second of anyone else's time, once they've decided that they are done. Conceding a two-player game is always okay. No exceptions.
if it's done on their own turn is fine. usually they wait for the other player to move then concede in the middle of action.

usually this what happens:
both players know the game is about to end.
you already wait for the other player until they finish their moves.
you already put thoughts on your moves next.
it is your turn now, while you're executing your actions they simply concede without mentioning anything.
they wasted your time for the whole game.

if it's not bad sportmanship I don't know what is
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Jest Phulin
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Joined: 08 July 2013, 21:50

Re: Please put a price on Concede Button

Post by Jest Phulin »

I'd definitely agree that if the game was obviously lost for several moves, playing out until the final move and then conceding to deny the winning move is bad sportsmanship. It is a waste of time.

Not recognizing that you are in an obviously losing position is another matter....


But, again, every player has the option to give a private red thumb to anyone for any type of play they don't like, so you can ensure you don't have to face that behavior from that same person again.
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CB Droege
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Re: Please put a price on Concede Button

Post by CB Droege »

There is no good way to say "They knew they were going to lose three turns ago, but they made me play a few more turns, so they wasted my time" not only is that ridiculous projecting (Just because you saw that they might lose, doesn't mean they did) BUT it also doesn't support either side of this argument. Maybe a player felt like playing through the end of the game after they saw they were going to lose, but changed their mind a few turns later. that's okay. People are allowed to change their minds.

I maintain that there are no exceptions. You can hem and haw and try to think of specific scenarios in which it's rude to concede, but it simply never is. If it's a two-player game with nothing riding on the spread (as in this case) it's never not okay to concede.

You're allowed to be disappointed when they do, and you can even choose not to play with them again, if you wish, but it would not be justified to take action against them, or assign a 'cost' to their concession. They are fully within their rights and their good-gamesmanship. Your disappointment does not make them wrong or bad. It just makes you disappointed. Own it and move on.
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nmego
Posts: 360
Joined: 27 December 2017, 07:08

Re: Please put a price on Concede Button

Post by nmego »

There are plausible reasons for why people concede on their opponent's turn, here are two of them:
1. Sometimes, they are in a losing position, but there's one move that their opponent has to find, in order to win the game. So, conceding is like saying "Yeah, good job, you've found it, there's nothing more to be done here"
2. Sometimes, it is not obvious to their eyes that they've already lost, and it is only made obvious on their opponent's turn.
you already put thoughts on your moves next.
it is your turn now, while you're executing your actions they simply concede without mentioning anything.
If anything, it is just my opponent admitting that my moves are correct, and I don't have to waste time playing these moves to prove that this is going to win me the game.
they wasted your time for the whole game.
Um, no? you still get to play like 50 moves before that, just because you didn't get to play the winning move doesn't mean your time was wasted or anything, you still won. I don't understand this sentence, it just seems like an exaggeration to me. Unless you're talking about the case covered in the next quote. Then, again I don't think that they've "wasted your time for the whole game". That's an exaggeration.
I'd definitely agree that if the game was obviously lost for several moves, playing out until the final move and then conceding to deny the winning move is bad sportsmanship. It is a waste of time.
Not recognizing that you are in an obviously losing position is another matter....
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is not an argument against conceding, it is an argument against "not conceding when lost, to waste time, and then conceding at the end to prevent opponent from scoring the winning move". Which is obviously a bad act of sportsmanship, can't disagree with that.

Worth noting, that conceding is only available in 2p games, and 2p games tend to have this element of gaining relative advantages over your opponent. So the element of having the "perfect tableau", or the "best finish", doesn't appear as much in 2p as it does in higher playcounts, where the gameplay shifts from "relative advantages" to "absolute advantages". Essentially 2p games are all about outplaying your opponent, while games with more players tend to be about doing the best with what you have. So, if the point of 2p games is to outplay your opponent, then conceding when you've been outplayed should be treated as an act of respect to your opponent. At least, that's what I think.
But, again, every player has the option to give a private red thumb to anyone for any type of play they don't like, so you can ensure you don't have to face that behavior from that same person again.
That is true, however, everyone has their own "bad days", and we're all human after all. So, maybe we should try not to be too judgmental on others for making a disagreeable play, in just one game. If you play with them multiple times and that behavior repeats, feel free to do so. Obviously everyone can do whatever they want with their private redthumbs.
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Jest Phulin
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Joined: 08 July 2013, 21:50

Re: Please put a price on Concede Button

Post by Jest Phulin »

nmego wrote: 27 September 2020, 15:31
I'd definitely agree that if the game was obviously lost for several moves, playing out until the final move and then conceding to deny the winning move is bad sportsmanship. It is a waste of time.
Not recognizing that you are in an obviously losing position is another matter....
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is not an argument against conceding, it is an argument against "not conceding when lost, to waste time, and then conceding at the end to prevent opponent from scoring the winning move". Which is obviously a bad act of sportsmanship, can't disagree with that.
No correction necessary. :)
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