Turn-based Arena: proposed solution to get it back

[nairobiny]

ADMIN UPDATE: not suitable solution (see why in first answer)
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Technique A:

You are automatically disqualified from that game's season if it is your turn to move in N outstanding Arena tables of that game when the season ends.

If N is 1, then some players may be unfairly penalised just because it happens to be their turn when the season ends.As N increases, more Technique A cheating becomes possible. So there's a balance to be struck (perhaps N=3?)

[Yes, I can see that this may incentivise Technique A cheaters to make last-minute moves in their losing games. There may be other ways of addressing last-minute movers].

[rdf240]

ADMIN UPDATE: not suitable solutions (see why in first answer)
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I'm surprised that such an overwhelming proportion of arena games are real time, that has not been my experience (Perhaps it varies by game).
I hadn't seen all these techniques in action, but honestly they didnt bother me that much - you are only cheating yoruself in the end!
Anyway, here are some ideas for potential solution:

Re Technique A:
- Give players a maximum total time for all their moves (I think this is how tournaments work). Stop turn based games A week (or whatever) before the end of the season. (I think this is the best solution as fairly easy to implement)
-Make the turn based games more moves per day (eg 8) so that you get more additional time

Player Update
---- If the time per game works for tournaments, I'm not sure why not for arena games. Real time games will prevent playing with people in other time zones, so you could set a timezone limitation as well (Or have the time of day set for each game, so moves are only in "day time". Or add 8 hours per player per day (not per move) to account for sleeping. Reality is with real life, exactly when you can move (and therefore when whose timer) is never going to be exactly "fair", I don't think this is a reason to eliminate this as an option



ADMIN UPDATE: potential solution (with defects - see first anwser)
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- Score all games at the end of the season, regardless of whether they are finished.




ADMIN UPDATE: not suitable solutions (see why in first answer)
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- Wait until all games are finished before ending the season

Re Technique B
-Enable relegation from leagues, so if you lose 10 in a row you can go down (with a league below Bronze where you enter)
-I also think the maximum total time for all moves would mitigate this to a large extent as you wouldn't be able to play in the way described in the issue (You would need to play all games within a set time so couldn't game the system as much)

Re Technique C
- It seems this is a smaller issue, since you still need to win the game you add in to your portfolio. However, relegation from leagues to lower leagues would solve this (If you win the real time game and then lose the turn based game you would go back to Silver)
- Alternatively you could set it so promotion only occurs when you "finish" all your active games (either in total or at the time the promotion "kicks in")
ie in the situation described.
You are Silver 9 with a turn based game that you are losing. You win the real time game which puts you to Silver 10/Gold 0. You are not promoted until all games active at this point are finished, when you lose the turn based game you go down a few points.

I find techniques B and C very odd - The way I see it the Arena is a way of playing people who are about my standard. Artificially inflating my standard seems like an odd thing to do...

Player update
--- I don't fully understand why relegation would create an issue or break the arena scoring system.

[PurpleTurkey]

ADMIN UPDATE: not a solution
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One remark on the statistic provided :
>>> 93% of Arena games are played in real-time, so we can't sacrifice 93% of the games to save the other 7%.
Obviously, I don't dispute this number.

However, what about a break-down of ALL arena players, and which percentage plays predominately "real-time", and which percentage plays predominately "turn-based".
For me, it seems that more than 7% of ALL Arena players have been negatively impacted by this change.

[PurpleTurkey]

ADMIN UPDATE: not technically possible solution (ie: a computer cannot guess the winner of a game that is not finished)
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For technique A :
For any unfinished games at season-end, calculate a pro-rata score based on "Percentage Completed".
This would not impact the large majority of Arena players, as long as fair warning is displayed on each game towards season-end.



ADMIN UPDATE: not suitable solutions (see why in first answer)
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For technique B and C :
Introduce relegation as well as promotion.
So even if someone "games" the system, they will still eventually return to lower levels.
This would also eliminate having 100s of players gaining ELITE level towards the season end (which defeats the purpose of having an ELITE level).

Note : I have read through the "Not suitable solutions", in particular the statement :
>>> The Arena is very popular as it is and we don't want to change the whole rating system to solve this issue (ex: possible relegation in a lower league during the season).
I don't understand why relegation would effect the rating system?
It seems fair that if you decide to play Arena mode, then promotion / relegation is normal (within one season).

[predatorc]

ADMIN UPDATE: not suitable solution (see why in first answer)
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Solution to tachnique C:
Make possible to lose league with turn based games.

[Priskus]

ADMIN UPDATE: potential solution (with defects - see first anwser)
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A1. Implement a cue for Arena Turn games, and prevent Skip in that cue... You must play the game where you have less time to play...

You can choose to filter by game, like i want to play my Stone Age Arena Games, but you have to play those in order).

Filter game Cue because some games hard to play on smartphone...


ADMIN UPDATE: not suitable solution (see why in first answer)
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A2. Implement fixed time to players like in tournaments. Players can set on BGA options (sleep hours, 8 hours per day where the clock is stoped).

[Phylantrios]

ADMIN UPDATE: potential solution (with defects - see first anwser)
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FIFO + turn-based blocks real-time in Arena

A & B: FIFO (First In First Out). This has been already proposed and considered a solution for A and B. You have to play first the table which has been waiting for you longer.

C: if you are playing turn based tables in Arena for a given game, then that game is blocked in real time Arena for you.

So applying both you solve all problems. Defect of the blocking system: flexibility, of course. But I don't see a very big problem. In most cases, non-cheaters who mix turn-based and real-time use one system for some games (short ones) and the other system for the rest (longer games). If you really want to mix both in the same game and arena season, then decide which periods will be for each kind depending on your personal situation.

Ok, it's not 100% perfect, but IMO it's better than the other possible solution (1 turn-based table at a time in Arena per game). Stone Age (quite popular) as an example, the average time for one table in season 2 has been around 30 days.

By the way, I would apply FIFO not only for Arena and not only for a given game, but for all your tables in all games. It is not fair that some people wait for you for 2 days while those 2 days you are playing other tables in a different game. And even for starting real-time. Empty your stack of pending tables before starting a new table. Of course, once you a start a real-time game, if its your turn in a turn-based table it can not block the real-time one. But empty stack of turn-based tables waiting for you before starting anything seems fair.

[Raulfr]

About:

For all techniques: Allow only 1 game game at a time

It solves all the cheating techniques, BUT if you play a turn-based game during 6 weeks, then you can't play any real-time game during 6 weeks.

I like this, but I don't understand the defect. Restriction of one only Arena game for different boardgame. Don't count casual non-Arena games in this restriction.

Also, for A & B: More strict policy about time. A max time for player, automatic penalties in karma and/or ranking if you exceed your time limit. More you exceed your time, more severe the penalties are, even up to disqualification.
These pnalties can be possible too in non-Arena games...

[sylviel]

I think that there is a distinctio between technique A and B/C. Indeed technique B and C are only for people that are not in elite (I wonder what percentage of games this represent by the way) and thus can be addressed separately. A is the main problem in my user experience : I don't really care if someone get gold because it does not affect my standing, I do care if someone take a place above me in the standing by cheating.

Technique A : give a full time window (tournament style), preventing turn based game to start before the end of season in order to guarantee that the games finishes. To take into account the playing time window let people parametrize their "playing time" (or maybe their unavailable time, e.g. 8 hour time period when they sleep so that timer does not count while you are in it). This way you can launch only games that will surely end before end of season.

Technique B and C : do not allow for turn based game unless you are elite.
The main defect being that some of the best players don't have the time to play to reach elite, hence either give a way of going faster to elite once you have been there (instead of restarting bronze I someone who have very high elo - you can still restart the arena points at 0) or simply allow for turn base mode if you got elite at least once.

[Mastro Federico]

For A&B: For a given game, force you to play on the turn-based tables where you are waited for the longest time

plus

For C: Disallow starting a realtime Arena game if you are not Elite* and if you have a turn-based table in progress with progress >67% (or 50% or 75%).

* C is not possible with Elite players.