Be inclusive by adding gender options and pronoun options

[Giordano Bruno 1974]

Am I missing the problem here? When has they/their ever not been an adequate genderfree alternative to his/her. "juss100 must take their turn" seems fine. No one is going to struggle to translate that. No-one is going to be offended. Where lies the issue?

I agree that society's obsession with our sex is ridiculous but also think that gender non conforming non binary people are probably even more obsessed with it. Just call people what they want to be called if it makes them happy. I tend to use people's names to their face. Move along.

"Their" just doesn't translate into other languages because other language don't use "they" in this way. It simply wouldn't make any sense.

And yes you do seem to be missing the point. The point is not that people ought to be allowed to use "they". The OP states that people ought to be allowed to create their own pronouns and not be restricted to his / her / their. What's French for "ze" or "co" or "ey"? Would you even recognise that as a pronoun? What's the possessive adjective form? There are over 50 of these pronouns, I'd suggest you start learning them all now.

But don't worry about translation because the proposed solution is to simply insist that all languages use these pronouns.

Oh and if you don't use the correct pronoun then they'll correct you and even report you if you continue.

[juss100]

Am I missing the problem here? When has they/their ever not been an adequate genderfree alternative to his/her. "juss100 must take their turn" seems fine. No one is going to struggle to translate that. No-one is going to be offended. Where lies the issue?

I agree that society's obsession with our sex is ridiculous but also think that gender non conforming non binary people are probably even more obsessed with it. Just call people what they want to be called if it makes them happy. I tend to use people's names to their face. Move along.

"Their" just doesn't translate into other languages because other language don't use "they" in this way. It simply wouldn't make any sense.

And yes you do seem to be missing the point. The point is not that people ought to be allowed to use "they". The OP states that people ought to be allowed to create their own pronouns and not be restricted to his / her / their. What's French for "ze" or "co" or "ey"? Would you even recognise that as a pronoun? What's the possessive adjective form? There are over 50 of these pronouns, I'd suggest you start learning them all now.

But don't worry about translation because the proposed solution is to simply insist that all languages use these pronouns.

Oh and if you don't use the correct pronoun then they'll correct you and even report you if you continue.

Hmm point taken. I can only really see this with an English hat on since I speak no other language. I think maybe it's down to gender neutral adoptees to get together and work this through linguistically rather than insisting that preferred usage is used where it's impractical on a big multilinguistic site such as this. I don't think many people do use ze or ey though. I do think it's polite to acknowledge someone's prefernce where possible, though if that works for them. If someone goes by the title Dr and you insist on calling them "miss" then that's rude. If there's no option for Dr on a form then that's frustrating. As long as what someone wishes to do doesn't affect me or others negatively then I'm fine with it, whether I think it's ideologically a bit bananas or not.

[Giordano Bruno 1974]

Am I missing the problem here? When has they/their ever not been an adequate genderfree alternative to his/her. "juss100 must take their turn" seems fine. No one is going to struggle to translate that. No-one is going to be offended. Where lies the issue?

I agree that society's obsession with our sex is ridiculous but also think that gender non conforming non binary people are probably even more obsessed with it. Just call people what they want to be called if it makes them happy. I tend to use people's names to their face. Move along.

"Their" just doesn't translate into other languages because other language don't use "they" in this way. It simply wouldn't make any sense.

And yes you do seem to be missing the point. The point is not that people ought to be allowed to use "they". The OP states that people ought to be allowed to create their own pronouns and not be restricted to his / her / their. What's French for "ze" or "co" or "ey"? Would you even recognise that as a pronoun? What's the possessive adjective form? There are over 50 of these pronouns, I'd suggest you start learning them all now.

But don't worry about translation because the proposed solution is to simply insist that all languages use these pronouns.

Oh and if you don't use the correct pronoun then they'll correct you and even report you if you continue.

Hmm point taken. I can only really see this with an English hat on since I speak no other language. I think maybe it's down to gender neutral adoptees to get together and work this through linguistically rather than insisting that preferred usage is used where it's impractical on a big multilinguistic site such as this. I don't think many people do use ze or ey though. I do think it's polite to acknowledge someone's prefernce where possible, though if that works for them. If someone goes by the title Dr and you insist on calling them "miss" then that's rude. If there's no option for Dr on a form then that's frustrating. As long as what someone wishes to do doesn't affect me or others negatively then I'm fine with it, whether I think it's ideologically a bit bananas or not.

The thing is that the demand here is that "ze" or "ey" or anything the usual makes up themselves ought to be recognised as legitimate words and used not just by the website but by everybody on the site. It may not be common but it's being demanded so you ought to assume that someone will embrace this.

A point about language:-

English to Spanish

his card = su carta
her card = su carta
their card = su carta

If someone is a doctor then it is polite to call them that if they request it but if they are not a doctor but merely identify as such that's another matter entirely...

Anglo society agrees that "doctor" is a title that can be used in place of Mr / Mrs / Miss / Ms but doesn't recognise "teacher" or "engineer" as legitimate titles though other languages do. I'm a teacher and when in places like Thailand I might be referred to as "Adjan (teacher) Giordano Bruno 1974" but if I went round the UK trying to insist on this then I'd be an arrogant fool.

[juss100]

[

The thing is that the demand here is that "ze" or "ey" or anything the usual makes up themselves ought to be recognised as legitimate words and used not just by the website but by everybody on the site. It may not be common but it's being demanded so you ought to assume that someone will embrace this.

A point about language:-

English to Spanish

his card = su carta
her card = su carta
their card = su carta

If someone is a doctor then it is polite to call them that if they request it but if they are not a doctor but merely identify as such that's another matter entirely...

Anglo society agrees that "doctor" is a title that can be used in place of Mr / Mrs / Miss / Ms but doesn't recognise "teacher" or "engineer" as legitimate titles though other languages do. I'm a teacher and when in places like Thailand I might be referred to as "Adjan (teacher) Giordano Bruno 1974" but if I went round the UK trying to insist on this then I'd be an arrogant fool.

Just because society does something or has a social practice, doesn't mean it's the right one. Ultimately we have some people here who want social change - I find that a good urge, though I don't necessarily find them convincing. Once upon a time a woman would have been laughed at for asking to he called Dr, even if she'd earned the title ... that's why I brought that example up specifically. I agree it's slightly different but the point is that for social practices to change she'd have had to have suffered being called an arrogant fool a lot by a lot of men.

[Giordano Bruno 1974]

[

The thing is that the demand here is that "ze" or "ey" or anything the usual makes up themselves ought to be recognised as legitimate words and used not just by the website but by everybody on the site. It may not be common but it's being demanded so you ought to assume that someone will embrace this.

A point about language:-

English to Spanish

his card = su carta
her card = su carta
their card = su carta

If someone is a doctor then it is polite to call them that if they request it but if they are not a doctor but merely identify as such that's another matter entirely...

Anglo society agrees that "doctor" is a title that can be used in place of Mr / Mrs / Miss / Ms but doesn't recognise "teacher" or "engineer" as legitimate titles though other languages do. I'm a teacher and when in places like Thailand I might be referred to as "Adjan (teacher) Giordano Bruno 1974" but if I went round the UK trying to insist on this then I'd be an arrogant fool.

Just because society does something or has a social practice, doesn't mean it's the right one. Ultimately we have some people here who want social change - I find that a good urge, though I don't necessarily find them convincing. Once upon a time a woman would have been laughed at for asking to he called Dr, even if she'd earned the title ... that's why I brought that example up specifically. I agree it's slightly different but the point is that for social practices to change she'd have had to have suffered being called an arrogant fool a lot by a lot of men.

I'm not sure that this was ever true. Women have been prevented from becoming doctors due to societal restrictions that's a verifiable fact, I'm not sure that people ever laughed at female doctors once female doctors were a real thing. They probably found it a bit odd to get their head around to begin with but I don't think they would have laughed at a female doctor or refused to call her a doctor.

Societies and sometimes societies need to change but I don't think this is one of those cases. What we have is a private social code that people are trying to get enforced onto society. If people in a friendship group call each other by their custom pronouns that's fine, that's what those people do. If they can politely get enough people to embrace this then society will change.

I don't think they can. I don't think society at large will embrace this. But forcing society to change i.e. if you don't use my pronouns, I will report you is not polite at all.

[juss100]

]

I'm not sure that this was ever true. Women have been prevented from becoming doctors due to societal restrictions that's a verifiable fact, I'm not sure that people ever laughed at female doctors once female doctors were a real thing. They probably found it a bit odd to get their head around to begin with but I don't think they would have laughed at a female doctor or refused to call her a doctor.

Societies and sometimes societies need to change but I don't think this is one of those cases. What we have is a private social code that people are trying to get enforced onto society. If people in a friendship group call each other by their custom pronouns that's fine, that's what those people do. If they can politely get enough people to embrace this then society will change.

I don't think they can. I don't think society at large will embrace this. But forcing society to change i.e. if you don't use my pronouns, I will report you is not polite at all.

Wel, an ex-gf who got her doctorate had problems convincing the bank that she could and should change her title from Ms to Dr. This was back in the 00s, maybe times have changed. Heaven knows I've had enough conversations in my life about the usage of Ms, also.

Maybe you don't think this is one of those cases. I'm on the fence about it. I don't understand gendering or the need for it - however, I don't understand the insistence that non-gender or gender nonconformity is a state of being and inner knowledge, and one can be misinterpreted or misidentified as a person. In short I think all sides are wrong so in a sense it's kinda meaningless to me what we do either way. I'm just trying to be nice at this point (but generally fail when these topics come up)

[nairobiny]

I don't think they can. I don't think society at large will embrace this. But forcing society to change i.e. if you don't use my pronouns, I will report you is not polite at all.

It's worse even than that. It's "if you don't use my pronouns when you're talking to a third party".

Because if you were talking to pronoun person directly you would use the gender-neutral "you/your".

[Giordano Bruno 1974]

I don't think they can. I don't think society at large will embrace this. But forcing society to change i.e. if you don't use my pronouns, I will report you is not polite at all.

It's worse even than that. It's "if you don't use my pronouns when you're talking to a third party".

Because if you were talking to pronoun person directly you would use the gender-neutral "you/your".

Indeed. I may identify as a great singer but people who know may not share this view. Can I reasonably prevent them from describing me as a tone-deaf idiot in conversation with a third party?

[Giordano Bruno 1974]

]

I'm not sure that this was ever true. Women have been prevented from becoming doctors due to societal restrictions that's a verifiable fact, I'm not sure that people ever laughed at female doctors once female doctors were a real thing. They probably found it a bit odd to get their head around to begin with but I don't think they would have laughed at a female doctor or refused to call her a doctor.

Societies and sometimes societies need to change but I don't think this is one of those cases. What we have is a private social code that people are trying to get enforced onto society. If people in a friendship group call each other by their custom pronouns that's fine, that's what those people do. If they can politely get enough people to embrace this then society will change.

I don't think they can. I don't think society at large will embrace this. But forcing society to change i.e. if you don't use my pronouns, I will report you is not polite at all.

Wel, an ex-gf who got her doctorate had problems convincing the bank that she could and should change her title from Ms to Dr. This was back in the 00s, maybe times have changed. Heaven knows I've had enough conversations in my life about the usage of Ms, also.

Maybe you don't think this is one of those cases. I'm on the fence about it. I don't understand gendering or the need for it - however, I don't understand the insistence that non-gender or gender nonconformity is a state of being and inner knowledge, and one can be misinterpreted or misidentified as a person. In short I think all sides are wrong so in a sense it's kinda meaningless to me what we do either way. I'm just trying to be nice at this point (but generally fail when these topics come up)

I do not think society should accept non-binary as being a real thing. Internal feelings do not need to be externally validated by society at large. If someone doesn't feel either male or female that's their choice but expecting random strangers to take that much interest in your inner struggles is rather odd.

I'm not a doctor but I wouldn't really care whether my bank called me "doctor" or "mister" if I was but I think "Ms" is pretty accepted these days. I do not know anyone who refuses to use it.

I don't think it unreasonable to be "Ms" rather than "Miss" or "Mrs". I would find it unreasonable to wish to be "Mrs" if you were not married or "Miss" if you were though.

[juss100]

]

I do not think society should accept non-binary as being a real thing. Internal feelings do not need to be externally validated by society at large. If someone doesn't feel either male or female that's their choice but expecting random strangers to take that much interest in your inner struggles is rather odd.

I'm an atheist and don't believe society should accept God as a real thing. There's a whole lot of ways that religious thinking is problematic for society but at the same time I think we should live graciously and pleasantly side by side if possible - I even try and take interest in the inner struggles of Christians, Jews, Muslims etc because they aren't necessarily awful people for wanting a different society to me.

I'm not a doctor but I wouldn't really care whether my bank called me "doctor" or "mister" if I was but I think "Ms" is pretty accepted these days. I do not know anyone who refuses to use it.

Great, I'll let her know that she shouldn't be concerned about having her achievements and status acknowledged and being treated as inferior to men, yet again, because some bloke who doesn't even have a PhD on the internet said he wouldn't be bothered .