Why was the racial justice thread locked?

[Recyclops]

Re: Please consider racial justice and historical oppression when choosing which games to host.
Post by DrClick » 17 November 2020, 19:27

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Games are games and it's all up to publishers to make them relevant or accurate to history, or not.

We're focusing on gameplay and rules. We're not history books, nor an accurate source for anything related to real things.

BGA is against any bad behaviors on real people, and will never EVER join, talk or expose about anything about themes, history or politic.
We're a gaming platform, we welcome everyone and do efforts daily to make this place a nice place to play nice games with nice people.

We're closing the thread.

While I agree a good recourse is to contact a game publisher directly... how can you say that BGA will not join, talk, or expose about anything about themes, history, or politics?

If you are making daily effort to make this place a nice place to play nice games with nice people, why are you not engaging in this conversation?

I would love to learn more about BGA's stance on racial equity. A lot of companies are (rightfully) creating action plans to address issues, is it BGA's official stance that they will not be involved in one way or another?

While I don't think you should be removing games, I don't think you should be locking topics to have a discussion about the issues in these games.

[Recyclops]

Re: Please consider racial justice and historical oppression when choosing which games to host.
Post by DrClick » 17 November 2020, 19:27

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Games are games and it's all up to publishers to make them relevant or accurate to history, or not.

We're focusing on gameplay and rules. We're not history books, nor an accurate source for anything related to real things.

BGA is against any bad behaviors on real people, and will never EVER join, talk or expose about anything about themes, history or politic.
We're a gaming platform, we welcome everyone and do efforts daily to make this place a nice place to play nice games with nice people.

We're closing the thread.

Also, it should not be political to be concerned with the treatment of people. If the thread had not been locked, I would go on to say that we need to look at it through an inter-cultural lends. Unfortunately not everyone has had exposure to education in these topics and may genuinely not know better, so I think education is very important.

But I digress. I would love to learn about BGA's official stance as well as if they have an action plan to address things like racism and sexism on their website.

If it's just the moderation/report system, are there any plans to improve this system? Any plans to revise and update the policies and procedures?

[Giordano Bruno 1974]

History is a list of mankind's misdeeds. There is no era or location that doesn't throw up "issues". Even a benign game like Kingdomino is set in the feudal era. Feudalism is an exploitative system of government.

I have played WW2 boardgames but a boardgame that accurately depicted events like the holocaust would be rather disturbing to say the least.

Do we need this rammed down our throat? Or can we be allowed to enjoy the game? And I don't want to be given a history lecture before I play a boardgame.

Even games in the modern era can be objected to. The modern world is hardly faultless.

So basically if you delete all the games that could be objected to that basically leaves us with abstract games like 6 Nimmt and Connect 4.

[ojomojojojojo]

You don't need it rammed down your throat. You can just ignore it if you don't want to see it. People who say this are usually racists.

Anyway, BGA doesn't seem to care about race at all. I reported a player who used the N word 3 times in a game and they gave him -10 karma. What is that? Clearly they don't give a hoot about the injustice that is going on in the world and even killing people. It's not a "history lesson". It's a reality for many people that happens in real time

BGA ADMIN UPDATE: after check, it was -30 karma. The accused player gived the name of Agatha Christie book during a Werewolves game, and when the other players told it was innapropriate joke (which it is), he said that he learned in school that (N word) are living in Africa and "(F word) that tolerance". The punition may be seen as indulgent - I would not be surprised by a 10 days chat ban here - but cannot be considered as "nothing has been done" or "BGA don't care". It is worth noticing that the moderation is done by the BGA community itself and that they may be sometimes some errors, which does not define our moderation policy, which is public and clearly state the penalties you get in each case.

[Giordano Bruno 1974]

You don't need it rammed down your throat. You can just ignore it if you don't want to see it. People who say this are usually racists.

Basically you are calling me a racist here. Stay classy.

[RibbitWiz]

Huh, ok, I guess this is the response I expected. I am most concerned by the administrators reply:

"Games are games and it's all up to publishers to make them relevant or accurate to history, or not. We're focusing on gameplay and rules. We're not history books, nor an accurate source for anything related to real things." - agreed, we can't control the games that are developed and put out in the world. However, we can control how we react to them. In this case, by stating that you are "not a history book or accurate source for anything" but then go on to allow these games to be featured with no caveats or trigger warnings is the same as agreeing with the themes and promoting the history they are portraying.

Additionally, you state "BGA is against any bad behaviors on real people, and will never EVER join, talk or expose about anything about themes, history or politic." - Right, that is great (and I would also like to see a racial equity statement from BGA...), however, the unchallenged acceptance of these games is promoting bad behaviors (the bad behaviors are the ignorance and perpetuation of the false history and consequences telling that history has on our culture). How can you defend those behaviors?

Finally, in saying "Also please note that they're also a source to motivate talks, reflections, exchange and viewpoints about history and education anywhere else." but then locking the thread?!? Are you really interested in discourse or are you afraid of having the conversation?

To provide a place for nice people to play nice games with other nice people, you have to consider the perspectives of all your users. I am a privileged white lady. If I were native american and saw a game that, first, used the phrase "Indian", and then showed the settlers and Native Americans as "friends" where the Native Americans were eager to help the settlers colonize the land?!? I would feel ignored, disrespected and unseen as a person. How does that fit into your goal of "nice"? How many people are you willing to ostracize and turn away from your platform because of these hurtful themes?

I am just saying that to encourage these discussions is your responsibility and in choosing not to, you must recognize that you have that privilege of not being hurt and affected by these constant untruths and can simply ignore them with no recourse on your physical or mental health. But how long are you willing to ignore and disrespect these long-oppressed communities?

I agree, this is a huge box of fishhooks. It requires calm people with open minds to find solutions that acknowledge our past and allow us to move forward in a way that doesn't ignore that past. Everyone take a breath. Open your minds to other ideas, and let's see if we can have an adult conversation that considers other perspectives. Please do not shut this threat down.

[Giordano Bruno 1974]

To provide a place for nice people to play nice games with other nice people, you have to consider the perspectives of all your users. I am a privileged white lady. If I were native american and saw a game that, first, used the phrase "Indian", and then showed the settlers and Native Americans as "friends" where the Native Americans were eager to help the settlers colonize the land?!? I would feel ignored, disrespected and unseen as a person. How does that fit into your goal of "nice"? How many people are you willing to ostracize and turn away from your platform because of these hurtful themes?

Amerindians are rather less sensitive about the word "Indian" than white people.

If I was Amerindian, I'd be rather more disturbed by a game that accurately depicted the colonisation of the Americas. Conquest, dispossession, devastating epidemics and massacres are not good themes for a boardgame.

I'm not aware of any Amerindians making a complaint. Are you?

[sXePotter]

I think this is a really important conversation to be had and find the fact that the thread was locked slightly concerning.

There are certain games (looking at your Puerto Rico) which very much skim the line of acceptable v unacceptable in terms of theme and it's representation of history. I feel that having a section about history on their wikipedia page would be a fantastic idea, allowing people to learn and decide if they feel comfortable continuing to play. We should be using these tools at our disposal to educate people. We live an age with almost unlimited access to information and I see no reason for BGA to be lacking in access to this information.

[Giordano Bruno 1974]

I feel that having a section about history on their wikipedia page would be a fantastic idea, allowing people to learn and decide if they feel comfortable continuing to play.

BGA don't control what is on Wikipedia. If you want to put it there then do so but there is no guarantee that it won't get deleted because Wikipedia have their own policies about what should or should not be on a particular page.

[sXePotter]

I feel that having a section about history on their wikipedia page would be a fantastic idea, allowing people to learn and decide if they feel comfortable continuing to play.

BGA don't control what is on Wikipedia. If you want to put it there then do so but there is no guarantee that it won't get deleted because Wikipedia have their own policies about what should or should not be on a particular page.

Oh I mis-typed! I meant the BGA wiki that is available under every game whilst in play.