The current rule set removes a lot of the skill from the game

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WhiskeyHammer
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Joined: 04 April 2020, 19:21

The current rule set removes a lot of the skill from the game

Post by WhiskeyHammer »

The skill in Koi-koi is very similar to some poker variants in both board state manipulation (i.e. matching and discarding strategically to maximize your yaku chance while blocking or minimizing your opponent's yakus) and in risk-reward management (i.e. making smart calls about when to Koi-koi). Two of the default rules basically remove all the skill from the risk-reward management side of the game.

Going first when you win. This is the biggest offender. Going first in Koi-koi is a huge advantage. Hitting a double match on a full board of eight cards gives you a huge starting lead that significantly disadvantages your opponent. Suddenly instead of being able to match against 7 cards they can only match against 6. Under these conditions, when compared to going first the second player has only 75% of the matching options. And hitting a double match is statistically most common on the first move of the game so it happens a fair bit. When you alternate back and forth this advantage is evenly spread. When the winner goes first, it creates a huge incentive to pretty much never call Koi-kio unless it's late in the game and youre losing. This is even more true when you consider the second default rule at play.

Starting multipliers. Out of the gate, a starting multiplier further disincentivizes the risk of calling koi-kio. When even the weakest 1 point Yaku can score you three or four points off of this multiplier system there really isn't a good reason to risk it, especially when there's such a powerful advantage to going first.

The two combined mean that there are very very few situations where you need to even bother to think about the risk vs reward side of the game. I've read that the rules are designed to encourage aggressive play but they have the opposite effect. They encourage low-risk fast-play that often devolves into an unbeatable snowball effect for who ever hits the first yaku.

Try it in your next game. Shoot for the fastest yaku you can hit and never call koi-koi. If you hit the first yaku and your board state control skill is roughly in the same ballpark as your opponent you'll rarely lose.
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nmego
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Joined: 27 December 2017, 07:08

Re: The current rule set removes a lot of the skill from the game

Post by nmego »

The current arena configuration isn't the most-skill rewarding ^ This should be changed.
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andycupid
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Joined: 31 July 2015, 14:22

Re: The current rule set removes a lot of the skill from the game

Post by andycupid »

I wonder why there is lack of discussion here.
I pretty much do approve of the points mentioned above. As a luck based game Koi-koi still requires skill to pilot, to evaluate yours and the opponent's hand, while choosing what pairs to form or block are crucial in close games.

There is one other question I have in mind. With the variant "Viewing Yaku", you form easy 5s or 10s in a move or two. The sake cup is tremendously powerful and serves multiple purposes, while the blue ribbon in the same month also offers a chance to score the blue ribbon bonus. So there are many games where the opponent takes it right off the bat without any thinking whatsoever, and that round results in me blocking them like mad and they cruising through effortlessly. I don't have too much experience under my belt, but may experts share some thoughts on whether this variant suits competitive play?
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flicky1984
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Joined: 05 November 2019, 11:35

Re: The current rule set removes a lot of the skill from the game

Post by flicky1984 »

I agree with all of OP.
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flicky1984
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Joined: 05 November 2019, 11:35

Re: The current rule set removes a lot of the skill from the game

Post by flicky1984 »

I see that going first after winning is an option! Thanks.
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ElessarDunadan
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Joined: 20 January 2025, 01:19

Re: The current rule set removes a lot of the skill from the game

Post by ElessarDunadan »

WhiskeyHammer wrote: 08 April 2020, 01:40 Two of the default rules basically remove all the skill from the risk-reward management side of the game.

Going first when you win. This is the biggest offender. Going first in Koi-koi is a huge advantage.

Starting multipliers. Out of the gate, a starting multiplier further disincentivizes the risk of calling koi-kio. When even the weakest 1 point Yaku can score you three or four points off of this multiplier system there really isn't a good reason to risk it, especially when there's such a powerful advantage to going first.

The two combined mean that there are very very few situations where you need to even bother to think about the risk vs reward side of the game. I've read that the rules are designed to encourage aggressive play but they have the opposite effect. They encourage low-risk fast-play that often devolves into an unbeatable snowball effect for who ever hits the first yaku.
I agree completely with this analysis. In my last few games, I have started second, and the first player keeps getting yaku before I'm unable to do anything, and I basically turn into a spectator at the game. Unless I get a perfect deal, there is no way to stop the other player. These rules should NOT be the default, nor should they be used in arena games.
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Shobu
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Joined: 04 January 2020, 04:14

Re: The current rule set removes a lot of the skill from the game

Post by Shobu »

What would be your favorite most competitive ruleset? (not limited to BGA options)
I'm playing it physically, and am wondering which way to go
BG_MAX
Posts: 2
Joined: 24 February 2025, 11:45

Re: The current rule set removes a lot of the skill from the game

Post by BG_MAX »

Ruleset that I prefer to play (imo it's a more balanced in terms of luck-skill than current):
- Half a year
- Hard Koi-Koi
- Viewing yaku Disabled
- Base Bright multiplier Disabled
- Cards of the month Disabled
- Drawn hands management No scoring
- First to play Winner starts the next month
- Dueling Triads Disabled
BG_MAX
Posts: 2
Joined: 24 February 2025, 11:45

Re: The current rule set removes a lot of the skill from the game

Post by BG_MAX »

After few testing games I've found ruleset that can reduce the impact of luck over skill and motivate to play more agressivly
Longer distance: 12-24 rounds. It's obvious thing that on short distance luck is more important
Loser starts the next round. Player who starts first is more likely will get a cheap yaku first. So it's reasonable to take a risk and try to increase your advantage. Instead of humbly stopping the round after the first yaku and letting the opponent move first.

This is example of my games:
https://boardgamearena.com/12/koikoi?table=645768393
https://boardgamearena.com/8/koikoi?table=646741460

It was the first time when I really enjoyed playing Koi-Koi
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DouxHC
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Joined: 02 September 2016, 19:46

Re: The current rule set removes a lot of the skill from the game

Post by DouxHC »

Very late to the discussion, but the way we play it at the Japanese Culture exchange, taught to us by personal in the Embassy is, Full Year 12 Rounds, Hard Koi Koi, Viewing Yaku can be any actually, it depends if you are playing with beginners or people that have experience, I prefer Disabled, Base Bright multiplier Disabled, Cards of the Month Enabled, Dealer Wins Drawn Hands 1 or 6 Points but here on BGA is 6 points so I would go with that, the Loser start the Next Month, the combination of the 3 Poetry Ribbons and 3 Blue Ribbons is 10 Points...
If you are going to play half year then disable the cards of the months, it doenst make sense...
and there´s also the Lucky Hands, you get 6 points at the beginning of a round if you get 4 cards of the same month, or if you get 4 pairs... this almost never happens, but when it does you get the 6 points....
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