We can’t possibly compete on ELO against 2-player games.

[Chadmild]

ELO in general is a System to evaluate strength in 2-player games.

Adapting it to more players is kind of artificial - not completely impossible though. But it isn't expected to lead to very good results. Maybe could be done better than it is now. But I think to be accurate, the site could only switch off the computation of any ELO-number for 3+ player games and only change the number after 2-player-games. So if you are playing 3+, you just cannot expect to get very accurate ELO - so there's nothing to complain about here ^^

You're right.


To sum up, for every individual game, BGA simulates a probability of win against the opponent depending on elo. Based on millions games played here, we could presume this algorithmic is significative, maybe less in my case (very high difference elo between a master and a rookie) than for Wreckage (average difference elo, including regular players).
We saw the mean value statistic were supposed to be both 0 everytime, perfectly fair. So the different elo points awarded are correct in view of the probability of win according to BGA.

Now, the real debate is about the question of calculation about 5p games considered as additional 1 vs 1 games.
Would it be normal to win equal points for a victory in a 5p than 4 wins in dual games against the same players ? No.
On the contrary, would it be logical to lose equal points if you finish at the last place than 4 defeats in dual games ? No.
That's why a reducing % is applyed, maybe it's not perfect as said, but it's important to repeat it works in both case (win/loss) !


I'm a little bit disappointed with some people here : it's so easy coming and saying "i agree, everything is said, this is unfair" and then, nothing...No argument, no answer to opposite comments, no eventual mistake confessed.
So, should we consider all of you realized your request wasn't so fair
Furthermore, i wrote little private messages (with respect ) to few guys targeting me, half of them read it and didn't want to reply, strangely...Not a gentleman behaviour. But 'd like to thank JulAugSep for apologizing and editing his bad comment.
I don't pretend i'm totally right but at least, i tried to think with objective stats

[Chadmild]

I think the only way to answer this is to check the data and calculate how often the higher ELO wins in multiplayer games

This is true ! Have you got time to do this interesting work ?

I can tell you, if they work together to beat the higher ELO in carcassonne, your chance of winning is almost 0% and from a pure game-theoretical points of view that's probably even a dominant strategy for them

Yes but the system must suppose the guys don't work together, without agreement. They could also focus on each other to try to finish 2nd, considering they can't win. Your example is right in Carcassonne but you cannot really collaborate in 6nimmt.

I can rephrase the questions: if you would play that game in 6 nimmt, do you really think you only have 3% chance of ending last? If you play 33 3-player games, are you telling me that you would only end up last in 1 of them?

It seems to be low i admit, it was just a supposition but 20% is maybe too high. The data history would give us the +/- right % but i doubt it exists lots of 3p games played in this configuration for 6nimmt...

But remember people complaining here about the system usually play against each other, +/- equal elo (restricted tables by level) so they are not really affected, do we agree ?

[Bids]

I agree with you that the points calculation with the current percentages is completely correct an independent of the number of players for me the point system creates a level playing field, independent of number of players. The percentages create the distortion for me.

This is true ! Have you got time to do this interesting work ?

If BGA gives me a budget for that I can do that work. It's basically what I do for living

[Fiora_Laurent]

All right everybody listen up , here is a bad news for your majority:
Now I have a suitable example to refute Wreckage.
Please look at the TOP 10 RANKINGS now. <Chadmild> still has 716 ELO but he is at the 2nd place now.
And <Sand73> is at the 1st place now with 731 ELO!!! Then look at his game history:https://boardgamearena.com/player?id=83 ... n=prestige

• He is a pure <multiplayer set> player, never played even one 1v1 game.

• His win ratio is extramely high, up to 98%, even higher than any 1v1 players in TOP 10 RANKING.

• He played 332 games in total, it means he reached 731 ELO without the effect of a lucky long win streaks and high K factor in the beginning.

• His latest climbing from 592 ELO to 699 ELO does not takes quite a long time, only 15 games(10 wins + 5 losses).

• More incredible thing is, his ELO continues increasing up to 812 then decrease back to 731 due to several losses.

• The most incredible thing is, ELO from 699 to 812, the process takes him for only 5 games(an epic 5 wins streak).

• His ELO increases at an incredible speed because he only plays with valuable opponents and still keep a high win ratio.

So the 2 conclusions are:

• It is possible to reach 700+ ELO in <multiplayer set>.

• Up to now, the upper limit we know of <multiplayers set> is higher than it of <1v1 set>.

Besides, if you are strong enough, you can achieve it very quickly. <Sand73> showed us that it is not a mission impossible.

[Wreckage]

Flora, that player has only played 5 games during the current ELO system. Before that they played with a 25 K factor. There were many more players back then reaching 700 and 800, then the system changed. If those players come back they are in 1st place, even though they might have been in 5th place at the time. Notice that his last game with the 25 K factor has a group average of 645 as everyone’s ELO was higher back then. He cannot maintain that for very many games in the current system. If you look at Dark Knight, his ELO was gained in the old system, and now is dropping like this player as well. On the game that Dark Knight reached 814, the average player at the table was 690.

Chadmil, you have stated your case well. I have no problem with you playing how you want to play. Also, your win % is higher, I stand corrected. I’ll admit I didn’t look very deeply into the whole ELO issue before my first post. What I do know is, in multiplayer it is nearly impossible to exceed an ELO more than 200 above your average opponent. And even if the miracle of beating 99 opponents out of my last 25 games were possible (which it isn’t) against your last 100 opponents, my ELO would have only gone up 62.5% as much for my victories.

For the record, I am not saying you are doing anything wrong. I am saying that the multiplayer penalty is too harsh.

Fiora_Laurent, it seems clear that you are doing something dishonest, or have plans to in the future. I don’t mind someone having multiple accounts, but you have 20+ that you are active with while having different nationalities on them…no reason for this except an intent to cheat.

[Fiora_Laurent]

Flora, that player has only played 5 games during the current ELO system. Before that they played with a 25 K factor.....

Sorry, my fault. But my main conclusion maybe still holds, because:
At least the win ratio is not fake. Even if his opponents have only 200-300 ELO, it is still an outstanding achievement to keep 98% win ratio in <multiplayer set>. I think neither you or me, has no capacity to keep 98% win ratio in any kind of game sets. So it is maybe impossible for him to reach 800 ELO once again, but still enough to let him reach his ELO up to 700. maybe also can surpass <Chadmild>.

Fiora_Laurent, it seems clear that you are doing something dishonest, or have plans to in the future. I don’t mind someone having multiple accounts, but you have 20+ that you are active with while having different nationalities on them…no reason for this except an intent to cheat.

• I have only 6 active accounts, far from 20.

• In short, the purpose is to occupy the top 10 rankings, the more conspicuous the better, because I'm a childish show off.

• Set different nationalities in order to let less player figure out that these accounts are used by only one person.

• Actually I not only never scare of anyone find the "secret", but also desire everyone can find it.

• For example, the former names of my accounts are very similar, pigu005, pigu006, pigu007......etc

• One of my accounts was reported indeed by someone and judged guilty by the reason of "multiple accounts to boost ELO".

• The punishment is only "warning" and has already been revoked by BGA before it expires automatically(60 days perhaps).

• Because I did some thing to successful demonstrate to the administrator that the judgement is evidenceless and my innocent.

• One administrator contacted me and told me that "as long as you're not playing with these accounts on the same table to win ELO, that's acceptable for the moment."(original text)

So, welcome to report me whenever you want. BTW, you'd better to find some evidences first, just like what I do for this player, who is a real dishonest cheater.https://boardgamearena.com/player?id=88771888
Or it will be a waste of time.

[N_Faker]

The punishment is only "warning" and has already been revoked by BGA before it expires automatically(60 days perhaps).

The report is unchanged.

Because I did some thing to successful demonstrate to the administrator that the judgement is evidenceless and my innocent.

You were reported for having multiple accounts within the same game ranking, which you already admitted to, then and now. And as previously stated, this has been moderated in the past. Though, I suppose it is acceptable now.

One administrator contacted me and told me that "as long as you're not playing with these accounts on the same table to win ELO, that's acceptable for the moment."(original text)

You really could have just said that in your initial thread instead of editing every post.

[Fiora_Laurent]

The report is unchanged.

I don't know if I misunderstand you. I just want to say:

• The "guilty record" was really exist in the profile pagehttps://boardgamearena.com/player?id=89184187 and it disappeared before it expires.

• For the respectation to you, I just check each profile pages of my accounts, and find nothing new "guilty record".

You were reported for having multiple accounts within the same game ranking, which you already admitted to, then and now. And as previously stated, this has been moderated in the past. Though, I suppose it is acceptable now.

If you think a new report of the same reason which is proved invalid is now acceptable, please just do it, I very welcome to do this.

You really could have just said that in your initial thread instead of editing every post.

Sorry about that. Because my tongue language is not English, so sometimes I edit my posts frequentely in order to make express my thought more clear or read easier. I think it is a positive behavior.

[N_Faker]

The report is unchanged.

I don't know if I misunderstand you. I just want to say:

• The "guilty record" was really exist in the profile pagehttps://boardgamearena.com/player?id=89184187 and it disappeared before it expires.
  For the respectation to you, I just check each profile pages of my accounts, and find nothing new "guilty record".

https://boardgamearena.com/report?id=36 ... r=89184187

You really could have just said that in your initial thread instead of editing every post.

Sorry about that. Because my tongue language is not English, so sometimes I edit my posts frequentely in order to make express my thought more clear or read easier. I think it is a positive behavior.

I'm talking about this thread. https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewto ... =3&t=18807

[Fiora_Laurent]

https://boardgamearena.com/report?id=36 ... r=89184187
I'm talking about this thread. https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewto ... =3&t=18807

Allright you are right , but it is nothing different, because it is invisible to anybody including myself. Unless somebody get the link from some rare way.
Besides, I am so surprised that you guys still discuss about the topic at there. But sorry, due to my innocent has been confirmed by BGA and it's a long time ago, I don't want to join that discussion once again. But I don't care you guys continue discussing at there if you want.
And I must declare: I never received any notifications about those posts from the forum, otherwise I think I was glad to discuss with you.

And about those posts, why I edited them? When the adminstrator chated with me:

• He ask me to delete my "Announcement"(which admit I have multiple accounts) in my each profile page in order to reduce the influence.

• Then to show my sincerity, I ask him if I need to delete the post in forum. He said "You can".

• I tried to delete them but I find I have no authority, so I edited them.

• So I came back to tell the adminstrator the condition and ask him to delete it by his admin authority, if he thinks it is necessary.

• He said "That's ok for the forum."

That's all.