Failed amphibious not consuming Surprise attack amphibious action?

[Madmaze]

Hello,

The current arena scenario France 1944 raised the case of what happens when an amphibious invasion (AI) fails: since only one AI is allowed per suprise attack marker, should the AI action of the suprise marker be considered spent in all cases, or only if the invading force manages to land (i.e. transport was not interdicted)? Or when the invading force arrives in final Sea Zone before landing, as seems suggested by this BGG thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/262749 ... on-problem ?
The BGG thread doesn't provide a clear definitive answer, so I'm curious what was finally implemented on BGA.

In our case (https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=162606178), UK declared an AI and moved a tank out of Cardiff into SZ 9. There was a UK Surpise marker in SZ 7 (and another in SZ 10, but another AI had already taken place there). I, as Axis, activated a Surface action marker from Brest (SZ 7), and successfully interdicted the convoy. But apparently the AI action of the SZ 7 Suprise marker was not spent, since UK was able to launch another AI from Plymouth using the same marker... In total there were 4 AI on that turn (3 successful and 1 failed) for 3 Surprise markers.
My aim was to interdict and make UK waste a surprise marker. Should I have waited for the convoy to move to SZ 7 before intercepting?

[RobertBr]

This is a rules question first. Rule 6.3.2.5 is actually explicit "A phasing faction may make one Amphibious Invasion attempt per Surprise Attack marker located within a Sea Zone" (not 'Amphibious Invasion resolution') which would mean that an interception should stop the surprise marker being used again (for invasions, it should still work for carrier strikes).
You will generally get a rules answer fastest at https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/614 ... r-2-europe
If you get a definite confirmation and can indicate the bug in a game then obviously report it.

Not something I've come across yet because I generally double up escorts which means the surface action will never succeed in intercepting.

[Lord Vasta]

This situation was discussed on BGG and among the USE Design Team. The official ruling is the interdiction of a declared an AI outside of the SZ containing the Sur Att marker and the declared invasion hex does not use up any Sur Att marker/AI attempt.

This was decided on the basis of play balance (considering how long it takes to recover Sur Att markers) and also simulating the better intelligence and naval superiority of the Western faction (who are the only faction to which this applies).

A Sur Att marker is used up for an AI attempt only after the invasion hex has been declared.

Sal

[Madmaze]

@Lord Vasta: So if I understand correctly, the practical implication for me as defending faction is that I should wait for the convoy to move to the final Sea Zone before intercepting so the surprise attack marker is used up, is that right?

[RobertBr]

This situation was discussed on BGG and among the USE Design Team. The official ruling is the interdiction of a declared an AI outside of the SZ containing the Sur Att marker and the declared invasion hex does not use up any Sur Att marker/AI attempt.

This was decided on the basis of play balance (considering how long it takes to recover Sur Att markers) and also simulating the better intelligence and naval superiority of the Western faction (who are the only faction to which this applies).

Good to know, but I would strongly suggest rewording the rulebook as no reasonable person would say the rule says that. On an unrelated side note I would say that I think the Amp. Inv/Sur. Att. rules already bend over backwards to pander to weak Allied payers and this is definitely something I've come to dislike as I've played.

[Lord Vasta]

@Lord Vasta: So if I understand correctly, the practical implication for me as defending faction is that I should wait for the convoy to move to the final Sea Zone before intercepting so the surprise attack marker is used up, is that right?

That depends on how much you want to risk an invasion getting through to the hex. If you only have one possible interception attempt, e.g. using a Surface Action marker, then waiting makes sense if the Allied player has many multiple invasion forces on hand. On the other hand, if you have possible attempts in multiple Sea Zones, then the odds of actually turning back an invasion(s) increases as you only get one air and/or naval interception attempt in the invasion SZ.

[Lord Vasta]

Good to know, but I would strongly suggest rewording the rulebook as no reasonable person would say the rule says that. On an unrelated side note I would say that I think the Amp. Inv/Sur. Att. rules already bend over backwards to pander to weak Allied payers and this is definitely something I've come to dislike as I've played.

Yes, I am working on rewording it.

The amphib rules were designed to be a somewhat simple to avoid logistics subsystems, work within the confines of the air/naval rules, and provide flexibility for different invasion locations to keep the game from being repetitive.

[Madmaze]

@Lord Vasta: So if I understand correctly, the practical implication for me as defending faction is that I should wait for the convoy to move to the final Sea Zone before intercepting so the surprise attack marker is used up, is that right?

That depends on how much you want to risk an invasion getting through to the hex. If you only have one possible interception attempt, e.g. using a Surface Action marker, then waiting makes sense if the Allied player has many multiple invasion forces on hand. On the other hand, if you have possible attempts in multiple Sea Zones, then the odds of actually turning back an invasion(s) increases as you only get one air and/or naval interception attempt in the invasion SZ.

Thank you, yes in my case (France 1944, defending as Axis faction), I only have a Surface action marker. So makes sense to wait before intercepting. I'll try it out on my next game!