BGA stance on players using engines to play games

[postmans]

Hi all,

I was wondering what BGAs stance is on players that use engines in games like checkers, chess, connect 4 (the games on top of my mind where I see this happening).

I used to enjoy playing some casual checkers here (shootout to the wonderful small community of recreational players from 1-2 years ago!).
When Arena came it was fun to go for that.
But soon enough the engine users started playing, and all of a sudden you get matched to somebody who all of a sudden plays on the level of a (grand) master.
Of course they could actually be a grand master playing here, but the difference between a good player playing good and an engine user is often quite obvious from:
- moves which humans rarely make.
- but most obvious, their time usage. These players use a consistent 10-20 seconds on moves ranging from the most simple capture decision (any regular player would easily take that decision 10x faster than on their harder moves) to the most complicated moves which a grand master would even think a minute on.

In connect 4 I've had a similar experience, I used to enjoy analyzing my games afterwards with an engine to improve, but found that large amounts of players I played against played 100% engine moves. Of course connect 4 is of such a depth that those playing it might have memorized the full sequence and pain points, so a bit harder to say for sure there, but looking at some profiles it was quite unlikely all of those players were 100% clean players of connect 4.

I've heard similar stories on chess here.

Today I was looking to report a player for engine use, where it's really obvious from the timings. However, I wasn't able to find an applicable report option. Does BGA allow engine use, or can these players be reported, and if so will they be acted upon? I fully understand if it is impossible for moderators to validate the cases, and as such rarely action would be taken, but I'm mostly curious to know if it's actually considered valid to play using an engine or whether it is not allowed (mostly because I am considering to try and program an engine myself for a minor game and was curious if that would even be allowed). Also curious to others' opinions.

PS: I know that for checkers and chess there are other websites where the competitive environment is a bit bigger and engine use is quickly dealt with, but loved playing here against some of the wonderful players in the small community who enjoyed a talk from time to time.

[whatshisbucket]

There is nothing in the terms of service that would prohibit the use of engines, so presumably doing so is entirely allowed.

[CB Droege]

There is nothing in the terms of service that would prohibit the use of engines, so presumably doing so is entirely allowed.

I don't agree. "Cheating software" is prohibited, and using and external engine to choose your moves is certainly cheating and it's software.

From the TOS:

BGA will not tolerate any cheating and/or lack of fair play, whether through the use of cheating software, analysis of communication protocols or code, use of multiple Accounts, collusion with other Users, leaving the game before its normal end, use of game blocking tactics in order to force other Users to quit, or the use of obscene or foul language, etc.

Seems pretty clear to me.

As for enforcement: I have no idea how they can confirm that someone is doing this.

[Ranior]

I don't think that is what they mean with cheating software at all. They are talking about software that would literally somehow manipulate the game state to impossible ends to allow one to truly cheat.

There is nothing in that Terms of Service against the use of engines or any other support. I can have someone giving me advice, I can read strategy stuff, and sadly, I can just use computational software to tell me the best moves.

It really is a thing that BGA just isn't in the position to enforce or detect anyhow--even i they created a rule against it they'd never be able to enforce it, so the rule would be pretty meaningless. Ultimately I think BGA is best to just accept that engine users may well use them, and other users probably have to accept it too.

Your best bet is to just red thumb users you think are engine users so you can try to enjoy the games you care about against other players that aren't using engines. I suspect filtering for skill level can probably help avoid some of the most egregious users too who are just attempting to get their elo as high as possible.

[LuthienCeleste]

I agree about engines not being "cheating software" by themselves. Much like knives are not "lethal weapons", they can be used that way but need not be.

As for engines being allowed... The terms of service state:

VIII. Fair Play
BGA will not tolerate any cheating and/or lack of fair play,

Is using engines fair play? Surely it is if both players have agreed about that.

Otherwise it is not allowed as stated by BGA themselves here:

UPDATE: our general guideline on BGA is "no computer help". This guideline is here to ensure that the feeling you have when playing a board game on BGA is close than the feeling you would have with the real board game. On some situations (including in 7 Wonders), we are breaking this guidelines for UX or any other practical reason, but we always try to keep the spirit of this guideline. Typically, we allow the computer to compute the cost of a card in 7 Wonders, but we do not allow the computer to compute the best move when playing Chess (something that would have been technically possible).

[Miwarre]

[...]Otherwise it is not allowed as stated by BGA themselves here:

UPDATE: our general guideline on BGA is "no computer help". This guideline is here to ensure that the feeling you have when playing a board game on BGA is close than the feeling you would have with the real board game. On some situations (including in 7 Wonders), we are breaking this guidelines for UX or any other practical reason, but we always try to keep the spirit of this guideline. Typically, we allow the computer to compute the cost of a card in 7 Wonders, but we do not allow the computer to compute the best move when playing Chess (something that would have been technically possible).

I think this is a different thing: as far as I understand it, this means that BGA game implementations will not extend the games beyond the properties of their physical counterparts (and it quotes an example where they decided differently in THEIR implementation, as a special exception), rather than prohibiting "computer help" by players at their place.

[pond26535]

I associate engines with a "lack of fair play"

[postmans]

So far a lot of mixed opinions on whether it's fair or not and allowed or not. Which leaves us in a situation where those bold will use it and not feel guilty, while others (with maybe more sincere intentions of revealing before game) wont.

Curious if one of the mods, admins can shine a light on this.

[sourisdudesert]

Hi

This is obviously forbidden and totally unfair.

However, this is very difficult to detect/moderate. If you look at Chess for example, all websites that offer online chess are suffering from the same problem.

The good thing is that the majority of games here has some luck or hidden information which make the usage of this kind of tool way more harder :p

If the problem becomes too important with Chess or Connect 4, our probable response may be to disable Arena mode and top ELO awards for these games.

[Manassès I]

disable arena mode and top ELO is a good idea
it is diffuicult to konw who cheats, because a very good player, at connect foor, has the same level than engines
i think, there is one way to know who is not a cheater, we can see in his profil, if he is a good player at another abtract game