Save when player has a play - convention

[foste]

So I've seen different opinions regarding this.

Player next to me has a card that needs to be saved on chop but already has a card marked for play.
Lets assume he knows he must play it.

If i save the card on chop with a number clue, it will:
1 - count as a save, because it's a number clue on chop
2 - count as a play clue of he leftmost number marked, because he had a play clue and would not discard now.

I see both options as valid. I've been according to #1 which some people seem to agree, some people seem to disagree.


Now, for #2:

That person may need to discard a card regardless in order to generate a clue to make another save ahead which i may be aware of, or not (someone needs to save a card on my hand).
By not performing the "early save" then he will certainly discard the card he should not.
Is this an acceptable consequence, or what am I missing?

[Jellby]

I'd consider it as a play clue, unless you were forced to clue (you were blocked) or there's reason to believe the save could not wait until next round.

That person may need to discard a card regardless in order to generate a clue to make another save ahead

If you discard instead of cluing an early save, the effect is the same. If for some reason two clues are needed (i.e. if you discard, the next person will still discard to get a second clue), your cluing is only making it worse.

[nccc]

how about continuous chop? did u take it into consideration?

[foste]

If you discard instead of cluing an early save, the effect is the same. If for some reason two clues are needed (i.e. if you discard, the next person will still discard to get a second clue), your cluing is only making it worse.

True, but here's a counter example:
I am player 1 then 2,3 and 4 plays,
Players 2 and 4 need a save and there's only one clue token.
I Have to clue (lets say my hand is locked).
I can save player 2's card or reinforce his play (if able to reinforce, new cards possibly introduced in his hand may make that impossible now - so I save!)
Player 2 has to discard because he needs to generate a clue for player 3 to save player 4.
In this case I actually can't do the play clue even if it is still possible to reinforce it because player 2 has to discard tot allow player 3 to save.

Also, your argument doesn't take into account i may not realise that one or more clues are needed to do saves on my own hand.

how about continuous chop? did u take it into consideration?

Is this about having one person who needs multiple saves? If so yeah, i can, as player 1, save a card in player 3 for player 2 to save the next one.

[GeraldineMerida]

If the group is very low on clues, I'd assume you would not be indicating another playable card now, when I already have one, so would see it as a sign to save the clued cad and discard something else.

[Jellby]

The point being: Just because a clue touches the chop does not automatically and necessarily mean it's a save clue. Neither does cluing chop when there is a play automatically mean that it's not a save clue. Both depend on context, and context is different for each player. That's where the beauty of the game is, otherwise it would be just following pre-scripted rules/conventions.

[foste]

Understood.
Thanks for your feedback!

[Romain672]

On hyphen-ated conventions, it depend of the difficulty of the variant:
- on easy ones (=all possibles on bga) it's a save
- on hard ones, it's a play

On bga, imo it's a play.

That really show how close it is.

The main 'problem' of 1- is when something weird happen, and you want to disambiguate the problem and resynchronise the team. While 1- causes 5s to be discarded or played, 2- let you safely goes on in your game.

That person may need to discard a card regardless in order to generate a clue to make another save ahead which i may be aware of, or not (someone needs to save a card on my hand).
By not performing the "early save" then he will certainly discard the card he should not.
Is this an acceptable consequence, or what am I missing?

True, but here's a counter example:
I am player 1 then 2,3 and 4 plays,
Players 2 and 4 need a save and there's only one clue token.
I Have to clue (lets say my hand is locked).
I can save player 2's card or reinforce his play (if able to reinforce, new cards possibly introduced in his hand may make that impossible now - so I save!)
Player 2 has to discard because he needs to generate a clue for player 3 to save player 4.
In this case I actually can't do the play clue even if it is still possible to reinforce it because player 2 has to discard tot allow player 3 to save.

Also, your argument doesn't take into account i may not realise that one or more clues are needed to do saves on my own hand.

Yeah bga isn't good to manage locked hands and stall clues. (hyphen-ated would be way too complicated for the simplicity of bga)
Per example, let said a player with a locked hand waste a clue. That should said to everyone else, they can receive no good direct clue. But if that same player do anything weird in the following turn, that will be interpreted normally

For your specific example, I would personnally really interpret this as a save, but I don't think that will be the position of most players.

[Travis Hall]

It’s a play. If you don’t regard that as a play, too often we lack a means to indicate that the chop card should play.

And sure, in the most basic game, you can get away with not needing to indicate chop cards to play using number clues. There’s no multis or blacks reducing your options, there’s plenty of slack so that, if you’re otherwise very good, you’re very likely to get your 25 anyway. But let’s face it, if you’re seriously contemplating the reasoning behind conventions, it’s time to be playing the more challenging variants anyway.

(And this is what Hyphen-ated is getting out with changing the conventions in use according to the difficulty of the game. It’s a similar idea to me telling you that you should be playing more difficult games if you’re asking this question.)

As for scenario #2… If you don’t use up a token saving the next player’s chop, there’s a token available and the next player doesn’t need to discard to generate a token. Also, if you have a card that needs saving, it’s on your chop and the save needs to have already happened, so it’s too late.

In other words, if there’s a problem leading the next player to discard instead of play, you are the one causing it by cluing when you should be discarding. So don’t.

Caveat: Context matters in all things. There are cases when an early save is necessary, and can even make it safe. They are rare, however. By default, given a lack of reason to believe otherwise, I’d read an early save as a play, and I will not give an early save so that it will not be read as a save.

There is a reason a whole bunch of really top players say “No early saves”.

[qpenguin]

If you discard instead of cluing an early save, the effect is the same. If for some reason two clues are needed (i.e. if you discard, the next person will still discard to get a second clue), your cluing is only making it worse.

True, but here's a counter example:
I am player 1 then 2,3 and 4 plays,
Players 2 and 4 need a save and there's only one clue token.
I Have to clue (lets say my hand is locked).
I can save player 2's card or reinforce his play (if able to reinforce, new cards possibly introduced in his hand may make that impossible now - so I save!)
Player 2 has to discard because he needs to generate a clue for player 3 to save player 4.
In this case I actually can't do the play clue even if it is still possible to reinforce it because player 2 has to discard tot allow player 3 to save.

Also, your argument doesn't take into account i may not realise that one or more clues are needed to do saves on my own hand.

how about continuous chop? did u take it into consideration?

Is this about having one person who needs multiple saves? If so yeah, i can, as player 1, save a card in player 3 for player 2 to save the next one.

In this case, you would clue save to player 4. Then player 2 can play, player 3 discard, player 4 discard and then on your turn again you clue save on player 2.