Cannot Change Desired Level in Arena Mode

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Sweetstylez
Posts: 3
Joined: 27 December 2020, 17:12

Re: Cannot Change Desired Level in Arena Mode

Post by Sweetstylez »

Agree this new experiment is awful. While i understand wanting to play against similar ranked opponents, wait times have greatly increased and don't come close to the timers that are shown on the screen. I have waited over 30 minutes to play a game that i used to find opponents in less than 2 min (draftosaurus). I don't always have time to invest waiting so long to play and just want to squeeze in a 15-20 min game playing into my day.

It also greatly impacts moving up rankings within a game if you don't start playing it in the first few days. You will never find opponents that allow you to gain enough "points'" to level up.
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sprockitz
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Re: Cannot Change Desired Level in Arena Mode

Post by sprockitz »

The algorithm is not working as intended. And if it was this would be bad instead of terrible, but as is it is terrible. Let me tell you why based on my experience and analysis of how the algorithm works (I don't have inside knowledge of the code) ...

The system works by creating tables with a specific setup based on your preferences...but only 1 table even if you have a bunch of preferences that you are okay playing with (initially this would be something selected from the "I'm okay playing with" section). After some time the system will sometimes create a second table (4 hours I believe for turn-based), which theoretically opens up the level preference after the appropriate amount of time (plus the created table is selected from your "I prefer not to play with" section instead of another choice from your "I'm okay playing with" preference (for example my 2nd table opened up is 2 moves per day & +/- 1 level (both "I prefer not to play with" while the first is 1 move per day & my level (both "I'm okay playing with"). So it is using all "prefer not to play with" settings instead of just one, or opening up a bunch of tables with all the settings you are okay playing. So this drastically limits your ability to play to a much smaller window than what you are actually willing to play.

Now it is still possible to join others tables that you qualify for, and it checks this every so often. The biggest problem here is that this won't happen with level preferences with people of different levels because the level preferences would never perfectly match. For example when a silver player reaches the 4 hour time and a game is open with their "prefer not to play with" setting a game is opened up that is available for bronze and gold players; however, the bronze and gold players can't actually join when their preference opens up to +/- 1 level. In the gold example, the gold player is only opening to tables that are +/- 1 relative to gold (silver-platinum), so the silver +/- 1 table isn't allowed because it accepts bronze (even if no bronze players are there and it is the last slot to fill). So, due to this fact even if you wait long enough to open to +/- 1 level, you can't actually join tables with players at +/- 1 from your level because the table requirement does not match the personal requirement. So the only players matching the table requirement would be those at exactly your level even when the requirement is +/- 1 from your level. In theory once you reach the 3rd level of waiting you could overlap with someone in the 2nd level of waiting (a +/-1 game hosted by a silver player when you are at a +/- 2 level), however this also requires your other settings to line up with their "prefer not to play" settings, which is much harder to do than the baseline 1 move per day that almost everyone plays with.

Now, even if the system worked as intended and you could play other levels after the initial 4 hour wait to get to secondary preferences (or 3ish minutes in real time?), another problem arises, where in a popular game, all players at a popular level will always play people on their level (as they don't wait long enough to play someone from another level)...that sounds fine on it's own, but it can also mean people on the same game but an unpopular level can never find a game...they've waited long enough to be eligible to play someone from another level, but those opponents never have to wait long enough to accept someone from their level...hence you are forced to wait for all players from exactly your level...which never happens in (my brief testing) with silver league in 7 wonders.
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NoelfromNY
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Joined: 25 August 2019, 22:28

Re: Cannot Change Desired Level in Arena Mode

Post by NoelfromNY »

Just let people make their own preferences. If they discover that it's too difficult to find a game because of their settings they will change it themselves or be willing to suffer the wait times. But let it be their own choice.
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Ranior
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Re: Cannot Change Desired Level in Arena Mode

Post by Ranior »

sprockitz wrote: 31 August 2021, 20:08 The algorithm is not working as intended. And if it was this would be bad instead of terrible, but as is it is terrible. Let me tell you why based on my experience and analysis of how the algorithm works (I don't have inside knowledge of the code) ...
Based on what I've been watching of real time queues in Terra Mystica among some of my friends, I think you are correct.

I still broadly think the idea behind this test is good. Trying to force players to play more games within their own league I believe is only a good thing. It might actually make leagues mean something in games like Can't Stop, whereas one of the big issues today is that a silver player can get games with elites and rapidly shoot up the rankings off of just a lucky win or two.

If you do change to this system, you may need to cut down on the number of leagues for games though to help keep the queue times low.

The other big issue is doing this in the middle of a season like this one, because Sprockitz is absolutely correct--it can be very hard if not outright impossible for players in games like 7 Wonders to get tables when hardly anyone is in that league anymore. The queue system also desperately needs to change, so that players waiting a long time and at the level of being able to play tables within one of their rating are seated down with priority over players that just enter the queue. At the moment it can be hard to get tables in many games if you haven't already hit elite as all the elite players just keep winding up at tables together and you basically have to wait for enough players from your current league to show up which may just not happen. Fixing that issue would be mandatory in my opinion if this sort of thing would be implemented in the future.

Again, I'm still broadly in favor of implementing said change. I think it would be a good thing if arena did a better job matching skill levels, and I think a small amount of waiting time is worth that tradeoff. The issue is you have to make sure it is just a small increase in wait times, not the position of being unable to get a game altogether.
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suny03ua
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Joined: 20 October 2020, 20:26

Re: Cannot Change Desired Level in Arena Mode

Post by suny03ua »

Glad to know i am not going crazy. I came searching just to see if something had changed. It takes forever now to get a real time game on Santorini and I get paired with the same couple of people every time, which is less fun. People who are at my level elo wise can't play me even if we have both been waiting for a game for 30 minutes because they are only gold but they can't find games at all to level up and so they have just given up all together. It was hard enough to get games before. This change has made it worse.
Last edited by suny03ua on 09 September 2021, 06:11, edited 1 time in total.
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sourisdudesert
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Re: Cannot Change Desired Level in Arena Mode

Post by sourisdudesert »

This test ends today.

The test shows that we are able to match you with opponents with the same level (>80% of the time), with a small additional delay (+25% waiting time) as an average.

However, this additional delay is way higher for some category of players (ie: league with few players), which makes too many of you abandonning the Arena.

It also seem that almost all of you prefer to wait less over playing better/more appropriate players.

What will change today:
- the default setting from Arena is to play to any opponents, as fast as possible.
- HOWEVER, to avoid competing with opponents too far from your level, you won't be matched against opponents with a difference of 3 leagues or more. You could not win any Arena points against these ones, anyway. This settings is enforced (cannot be changed).
- if you liked the change we made on last week and want to keep it, you may change your "opponent's level" settings for +1/-+ and +2/-2 players.
- we will probably try something else in the future, as we think this would be better for the competition to match you with best available opponents, and it necessarly mean that it will increase the waiting time (there is no magic here: better opponents = more waiting time).
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nmego
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Re: Cannot Change Desired Level in Arena Mode

Post by nmego »

sourisdudesert wrote: 02 September 2021, 09:53 - we will probably try something else in the future, as we think this would be better for the competition to match you with best available opponents, and it necessarly mean that it will increase the waiting time (there is no magic here: better opponents = more waiting time).
Is there's any hope of giving the scheduled arena system, that was tried before, another test? There were a couple of reasons it didn't work at the time, but mostly it was full of bugs. I'd imagine something like that might help to reduce the waiting time while offering better opponents.
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sourisdudesert
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Re: Cannot Change Desired Level in Arena Mode

Post by sourisdudesert »

nmego wrote: 02 September 2021, 10:03
sourisdudesert wrote: 02 September 2021, 09:53 - we will probably try something else in the future, as we think this would be better for the competition to match you with best available opponents, and it necessarly mean that it will increase the waiting time (there is no magic here: better opponents = more waiting time).
Is there's any hope of giving the scheduled arena system, that was tried before, another test? There were a couple of reasons it didn't work at the time, but mostly it was full of bugs. I'd imagine something like that might help to reduce the waiting time while offering better opponents.
Yes there is.
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Ranior
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Re: Cannot Change Desired Level in Arena Mode

Post by Ranior »

sourisdudesert wrote: 02 September 2021, 09:53
- if you liked the change we made on last week and want to keep it, you may change your "opponent's level" settings for +1/-+ and +2/-2 players.
- we will probably try something else in the future, as we think this would be better for the competition to match you with best available opponents, and it necessarly mean that it will increase the waiting time (there is no magic here: better opponents = more waiting time).
For multiplayer games one basically cannot update their settings like that though and expect to get games. If you try to restrict games to only your league, you will probably wait in the queue forever. Suppose you are queueing for a 4 player game and there are 2 players assigned to your game that meet your restrictions. You just need one more! But the next two people to enter the queue are not at your level, and all of them are at the default queue restrictions--those other 4 players now wind up playing a game and you're back to waiting at a table with no one. As long as the default is to play basically anyone, any individual trying to enforce player level preferences will fail. I'm not saying there is a great way around it, but I am saying it's a bit disingenuous to suggest individuals can update their preferences and actually have the system work for them remotely like it did during this test.


I'd also be interested in an attempt to have set launch times for games, as that seems a nice way to help enforce better matchups while also avoiding the issue of waiting too much for a game--this way you know when game start times are. For popular and short stuff like Can't Stop, 7 Wonders you likely want to launch games every 2 minutes or something even, but for stuff like Terra Mystica I think it would be reasonable to just have games starting every 20 minutes or something. I guess the tough part of that system will be for the players that fail to get seated at the cutoff point, you'd want to have a priority system for seating that ensures they get in the next game if they sit and wait or something.

Overall I realize none of this is trivial, but I do think arena would be a bit more interesting if we could all accept a little more waiting and generally games against players in your skill range. Regardless maybe I am alone in wanting to see more quality games.
PiratenPatsy
Posts: 5
Joined: 02 September 2021, 17:13

Re: Cannot Change Desired Level in Arena Mode

Post by PiratenPatsy »

Hi Sourisdudesert,

I am a new player on BGA and my favourite game is Piraten Kapern. I recently started competing for Piraten Kapern on arena mode. The estimated waiting time in the arena lobby states that it should take 1 min to match with opponents. I am currently in bronze league and I have got setting enabled to match me with players up until Gold League.

Q 1. Why does it never match me with opponents in Piraten Kapern within 1 min? it usually takes 15 mins and more and this is a popular game.

Q 2. Why enforce not being able to match with players 3 leagues and above? Why can’t BGA just let the players decide for themselves?

Q 3. What prompted BGA to make this necessary change? My friends on here who’ve been on the site for years now tell me that the original arena settings worked perfectly fine and there was no reason to tinker with this and rather BGA should have just let it be. If something works perfectly fine, why not just leave it alone?

Could you pls help me out by answering my questions?

Thanks in advance
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