Not loving the 3 player model in the arena, opinions?

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ArthurDent29
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Joined: 01 August 2023, 09:17

Re: Not loving the 3 player model in the arena, opinions?

Post by ArthurDent29 »

Thanks for the insights, also to understand the favorable things seen under this format...not that i changed my mind though :P will give turn based a shot since then it gives flexibility thoug so far i am not getting any tables created.
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BenPatient
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Joined: 05 December 2023, 21:04

Re: Not loving the 3 player model in the arena, opinions?

Post by BenPatient »

I understand the thinking behind the switch (EOR goals not so binary, pink cards have more of their intended value and the interesting push/pull from triggering them, etc).

And we will see how it plays out over the course of a season.

But....Arena Wingspan has been (by far) more popular as a real time game. It is easy to understand why: You can 100% start a game and expect it to be complete in 30 minutes or less. If you are a subscriber, you get a match literally before you have a chance to hit "cancel." Turn-based Arena games sometimes took 5-10 minutes to find a match. If you only have a half hour to squeeze in a game, it was great. Now it has been taking at least 5 minutes for the game to start. Player 1's already strong advantage (8 cards to pick from and you get to go both first and last) is now arguably even worse, since you get the starting advantage, and then you're the only player who gets first dibs on a new tray of cards twice. If you're 2nd player, it is even worse than going last, because at least Player 3 gets to make the very last move of the game. That is only marginally offset by the possibility of a pink power activating post-final-turn for everyone except Player 3.

You get pretty consistent, predictable Arena point results for winning/losing in 2 player. Are you in Elite league and matched against a Silver player? If you lose, you are going to drop 30 points. If you win, you maybe get 3-4. If you lose by 40 points or by 1, the result is really the same. That seems to be quite different with a 3 player Arena game, especially if the three players are in different leagues. Coming in 2nd in a 91, 90, 50 scoring game could absolutely kill you if that 3rd player is in Bronze league, even though you were never really competing with them.

Three player games might work fine as Turn-based. I rarely play Arena that way, and I don't think that will change this season...I will just stop playing Arena entirely unless I have much more free time. I'm not going to risk it unless I can dedicate a full hour. And the reward for that hour spent? Clearly lower on average.

I expect the games played this season will be not the 33% less that going from 2 to 3 players/game would account for, but more like 70% less. I guess we'll see!

That said, I'm going to keep trying and see if I can "learn to love it" but in my opinion, slower, more complex games work better in Tournaments or in regular ELO ranked turn-based modes.
Kiljoy-Wexx
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Joined: 15 February 2023, 23:00

Re: Not loving the 3 player model in the arena, opinions?

Post by Kiljoy-Wexx »

I'm enjoying the change. More unpredictability. More turnover in cards and rolls as mentioned. Goals are more competitive. Games are longer, but not really noticeable if players play quickly. Slow players make 2p a drag as well if you get them. 2p arena was getting a bit stale in my opinion.
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Kakapogoglu
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Joined: 06 July 2023, 10:16

Re: Not loving the 3 player model in the arena, opinions?

Post by Kakapogoglu »

In my case, I'm torn about switching to 3 players in the arena. I'm not against a bit of change because it's important to remember that Wingspan is a board game that can be played with more than 2 players. But it's true that from a competitive point of view, 3-player game changes a lot of things and unbalances the game. At the limit, 4 players would be ok (despite very long games), because everyone starts a round, and no one is really advantaged.

From a strategic point of view, pink powers will be more important to keep (yes, I think of you poor weak Loggerhead shrike :lol:), some cards will gain power and some won't. This could spice up the game a bit and change habits. On the other way, the game will be based more on luck upon skills : the luck of the cards of course (as for 2 players), but also the luck of coming across (or not !) opponents who give gifts, like hummingbirds, wilson's snipe, activating hunting powers while the other has a vulture etc. It might be harder to maintain a high ranking (it's already very difficult with 2 players when you're approaching the top 10-20), so it may be frustrating for serious competitive players. But it's still a game and falling down the rankings isn't the end of the world. The problem remains time management for those who might be bothered by it.
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DurdleGerg
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Joined: 13 May 2020, 03:14

Re: Not loving the 3 player model in the arena, opinions?

Post by DurdleGerg »

I was initially against it due to time concerns, but I'd forgotten how much fun the game can be with more than 2 players. I'm actually really enjoying the changes, both because of how differently birds are valued with more than 2 players, and the greater refresh rate of the bird-feeder/tray. I've been having a lot of fun so far.
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Natural__20
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Joined: 14 April 2025, 00:05

Re: Not loving the 3 player model in the arena, opinions?

Post by Natural__20 »

Though I've never played a 3 player game prior so it has some novelty, I have largely found the games drag and am sad I don't get my quick Wingspan fix any more. Reading this tread has convinced me even further that it's not a good idea.
FrankJones
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Joined: 30 June 2024, 00:24

Re: Not loving the 3 player model in the arena, opinions?

Post by FrankJones »

BenPatient wrote: 13 October 2025, 00:44 Player 1's already strong advantage (8 cards to pick from and you get to go both first and last) is now arguably even worse, since you get the starting advantage, and then you're the only player who gets first dibs on a new tray of cards twice. If you're 2nd player, it is even worse than going last, because at least Player 3 gets to make the very last move of the game. That is only marginally offset by the possibility of a pink power activating post-final-turn for everyone except Player 3.

I am not sure this point has been adequately addressed.

This is a major issue from a competitive standpoint.
Ceaseless
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Joined: 12 November 2022, 17:06

Re: Not loving the 3 player model in the arena, opinions?

Post by Ceaseless »

BenPatient wrote: 13 October 2025, 00:44 But....Arena Wingspan has been (by far) more popular as a real time game.
Active games tend to be. I remember a discussion where even the ones that seemed better known for turn-based being more popular in real time. As long as it's active enough to get real time pairings they seem to win out.
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ChioneWinterfury
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Joined: 28 June 2022, 21:57

Re: Not loving the 3 player model in the arena, opinions?

Post by ChioneWinterfury »

FrankJones wrote: 13 October 2025, 18:03
BenPatient wrote: 13 October 2025, 00:44 Player 1's already strong advantage (8 cards to pick from and you get to go both first and last) is now arguably even worse, since you get the starting advantage, and then you're the only player who gets first dibs on a new tray of cards twice. If you're 2nd player, it is even worse than going last, because at least Player 3 gets to make the very last move of the game. That is only marginally offset by the possibility of a pink power activating post-final-turn for everyone except Player 3.

I am not sure this point has been adequately addressed.

This is a major issue from a competitive standpoint.
Put these together with the possibility of King-making and you convert arena into a cesspool for 3p mode. It was converted to 2p previously for a reason. Don’t fix what isn’t broken imo.
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coyote spaziale
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Joined: 24 March 2024, 22:04

Re: Not loving the 3 player model in the arena, opinions?

Post by coyote spaziale »

I don't like WS in 2 players, plus I almost exclusively play turn-based arena matches, so thumbs up for me
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