Board Game Arena

FrankJones wrote: ↑19 December 2025, 01:13

Fuchur wrote: ↑18 December 2025, 23:55

I don't think that i ever concede in a game played on this site -- but the argument that i should continue only because someone would like the statistics seems quite silly to me.

That wasn't the only reason given.

And, I already said I would give a fully detailed explanation of the value of the statistics, if anyone is willing to say it would matter with regard to their opinion on this topic.

Since you have already decided the statistics are silly and unimportant, what's the point of my explaining further?

I haven't decided anything. As you aren't willing to give the tiniest hint about any statistics i just assume it's nothing. Otherwise it would be easy for you to show their value WITHOUT spending hours to do so.

About conceding : Not being able to see some information because someone has conceded is the only valid reason i can see.

FrankJones wrote: ↑19 December 2025, 22:01

(In the game I referenced most recently, I actually ended up winning. Unbeknownst to me, the hidden information part of the game was incredibly lucky for me. I truly thought I had no chance, but my opponent may well have known that I had aa win I was completely unaware of.)

LOL! This is why I am happy for people to concede against me at any point in the game

Fuchur wrote: ↑20 December 2025, 00:21

FrankJones wrote: ↑19 December 2025, 01:13

Fuchur wrote: ↑18 December 2025, 23:55

I don't think that i ever concede in a game played on this site -- but the argument that i should continue only because someone would like the statistics seems quite silly to me.

That wasn't the only reason given.

And, I already said I would give a fully detailed explanation of the value of the statistics, if anyone is willing to say it would matter with regard to their opinion on this topic.

Since you have already decided the statistics are silly and unimportant, what's the point of my explaining further?

I haven't decided anything. As you aren't willing to give the tiniest hint about any statistics i just assume it's nothing. Otherwise it would be easy for you to show their value WITHOUT spending hours to do so.

About conceding : Not being able to see some information because someone has conceded is the only valid reason i can see.

No. Wrong.

It would take a lot of time to explain the relevance of all the statistics in all the games.

Tell me you are open minded and that my providing the statistics might matter, and I'll do it.

If you don't give me any reason to think it would make any difference, why would I bother?

Can you meet me halfway? Probably not.

FrankJones wrote: ↑20 December 2025, 01:05

Fuchur wrote: ↑20 December 2025, 00:21

FrankJones wrote: ↑19 December 2025, 01:13

That wasn't the only reason given.

And, I already said I would give a fully detailed explanation of the value of the statistics, if anyone is willing to say it would matter with regard to their opinion on this topic.

Since you have already decided the statistics are silly and unimportant, what's the point of my explaining further?

I haven't decided anything. As you aren't willing to give the tiniest hint about any statistics i just assume it's nothing. Otherwise it would be easy for you to show their value WITHOUT spending hours to do so.

About conceding : Not being able to see some information because someone has conceded is the only valid reason i can see.

No. Wrong.

It would take a lot of time to explain the relevance of all the statistics in all the games.

Tell me you are open minded and that my providing the statistics might matter, and I'll do it.

If you don't give me any reason to think it would make any difference, why would I bother?

Can you meet me halfway? Probably not.

Could you explain the use of one statistic in one game ?

Fuchur wrote: ↑20 December 2025, 23:23

Could you explain the use of one statistic in one game ?

I'll use the game "Earth" for this example.

A completed game logs the following:

VP Total
VP from Tableau cards
Number of Tableau cards
VP From event cards
Number of event cards
VP From Composted cards
VP from Sprouts
VP from growths and canopies
Number of canopies
VP from Terrain cards
Number of Terrain cards
VP from player ecosystem card
VP from community ecosystem cards
total VPs from Ecosystem cards
VP from Fauna cards
VP from Tableau bonus
Number of cards in hand at the end
Number of soil in reserve at the end.
Number of times choosing plant action
Number of times choosing compost action
Number of times choosing water action
Number of times choosing grow action
Number of cards drawn in total
Number of cads composted in total
Soil gained in total
Number of cards discarded from compost
Sprouts placed in total
Sprouts discarded in total
Spouts converted
Growth placed
Growths discarded
Seeds gained
Leaves converted to seeds
Number of germinate actions
Sprouts placed on the board by player
Sprouts placed on the board by opponent
sprouts placed in tableau from the board


That is a large collection of valuable statistics.
For a completed game, any player can view those stats for that one game.
Additionally, any player who can view stats (apparently, it's a premium feature) can view his or her collective stats for all games of "Earth" played.
On the same screen, those stats can be compared to all players' averages, and to winner's averages.

FrankJones wrote: ↑21 December 2025, 00:13
On the same screen, those stats can be compared to all players' averages, and to winner's averages.

And if there's a large deviation between your average for a stat, and the average of the same stat for winning players, it could indicate that you aren't emphasizing that aspect of the game enough if it's lower than the average for winning players, or you're overemphasizing it if it's higher than the average for winning players. I've actually used this to reevaluate how I approach some games.

And, some highly dedicated players have downloaded these stats into spreadsheets to provide the entire community with highly valuable strategy guides, valuable correlations between some cards/actions and winning, and have even used this information to show the game designer that rebalancing was needed.

It's just a treasure trove of information, and it disappoints me that some people would just wipe this information away when the game is nearly over anyway.

In one situation, I had an opponent concede right at the end, and so I manually recreated this information by reviewing the game play. It took a LONG time. More than an hour. There's a lot going on in a game of "Earth".

So, the summary of the summary is … just communicate, eh? “Hey, I’m kinda done with this game, do you mind if I concede?”

The flip side is a little harder to imagine, where the clear winner would prefer the loser concede than drag things out… harder to figure out how to say, “yo, just give up already.” If something could be figured out, though, and these two requests encouraged and maybe added to the meeple menu (so you can be assured of reaching your opponent in whatever language they prefer), I think that could help.

I'll say it again:

If the main reason against conceding is the wish to see statistics, please ask BGA/developers to add statistics for conceded games.

You can then discuss if those statistics would be of any use: Should "average score" include games which end at 60% progress? But preventing concession doesn't help much: Should it include games where the opponent just passed after the second turn?

FrankJones wrote: ↑19 December 2025, 21:33 What would be my reason for conceding and possibly denying all this to my opponent? Because I can't spare the minutes it will take to complete the final 18% of the game? Because my ego "can't handle seeing a 20-point loss? That doesn't bother me. I'm actually curious to see how badly I lose this game, because, that's unusual, and I think seeing it play out is more interesting than just ending it abruptly.

If you feel that way, that’s fine but I don’t share that preference. I don’t find enjoyment or insight in seeing a lopsided loss play out, and I don’t think declining to watch it unfold reflects a personal deficiency. People simply value different things in games, and that difference alone doesn’t justify moral judgment.

This is why I think the disagreement here is fundamentally about values, not harm. Some players value seeing every game completed, every stat recorded, and every outcome finalized. Others don’t. The question isn’t whether those values exist, it’s whether they are sufficient to impose obligations on others.

Social rules in games require justification beyond “this is what some people prefer.” For example, I might value always greeting an opponent before a game, while someone else doesn’t. Without good reasoning or evidence that failing to greet causes meaningful harm, it would be unreasonable to enforce a mandatory greeting rule. Until such justification exists, that norm should remain optional.

I see enforced anti-concession norms the same way. Preventing players from conceding, or labeling concession as immoral, requires stronger justification than has been offered here. Another point that was raised is that final statistics are a paid premium feature. If those statistics were truly lost as a result of conceding, that would be a much stronger argument for restricting or discouraging it. However, as we’ve already established, at least in games like Wingspan, the statistics are not lost. They simply aren’t automatically compiled into a final summary.

In principle, the information is still accessible, though reconstructing it may take time and be somewhat tedious depending on the game and the point at which it was conceded. But inconvenience or reduced convenience is generally not sufficient justification for imposing a universal rule on player behavior, especially when the behavior in question is explicitly allowed by the game’s design.