What could I have done better in this game?

[FrankJones]

^^

I was guilty of suggesting the Kingbird was iffy, but I also pointed out hat putting it in the grassland was bad. My concern was that the Kingbird might only trigger twice.

But, in a 2-player game, sometimes we just need to make do with what we are dealt, rather than hoping and praying for help from the often unfriendly face-down draw pile.

I am too accustomed to Oceania multiplayer, where it's little problem to play one water bird, draw cards a few times (getting at least 2 cards, maybe more depending on the wetland bird played), and then it's no problem converting the extra cards into points or other things.

Likewise, With the migratory birds, I am accustomed to multiplayer Oceania, which makes these birds a lot less important (with fewer end goals being relevant, and again, less difficulty advancing the forest and wetland economy).

The Wingsplain website has these birds rated very low in the tier list.

My current opponent is making very good use of the migratory bird, and the annoying turkey vulture has caused me to skip activating my predator. Granted, a played a lousy predator because I simply wanted to play a 4-point bird for one food and get something in my forest, but still, it's costing me a few tries at a successful dice roll.

[Ceaseless]

^^

I was guilty of suggesting the Kingbird was iffy, but I also pointed out hat putting it in the grassland was bad. My concern was that the Kingbird might only trigger twice.

But, in a 2-player game, sometimes we just need to make do with what we are dealt, rather than hoping and praying for help from the often unfriendly face-down draw pile.

I am too accustomed to Oceania multiplayer, where it's little problem to play one water bird, draw cards a few times (getting at least 2 cards, maybe more depending on the wetland bird played), and then it's no problem converting the extra cards into points or other things.

Likewise, With the migratory birds, I am accustomed to multiplayer Oceania, which makes these birds a lot less important (with fewer end goals being relevant, and again, less difficulty advancing the forest and wetland economy).

The Wingsplain website has these birds rated very low in the tier list.

My current opponent is making very good use of the migratory bird, and the annoying turkey vulture has caused me to skip activating my predator. Granted, a played a lousy predator because I simply wanted to play a 4-point bird for one food and get something in my forest, but still, it's costing me a few tries at a successful dice roll.

I think you underestimated how important "I have a bird here" is in this base game, especially in the early game. You're concerned about Kingbird only triggering twice, while I'm thrilled just having it trigger once. That, and the interaction with Chimney Swift. Lots of small tier stuff pushed these cards over the edge to be essential to the hand in context, even if they don't seem independently remarkable. Wingspan rewards players for realizing when a commonly weaker card is occupying an important niche in the ongoing game. A tier list tells you how a given group of players evaluates the cardpool in the general sense, but in an actual game cards are ranked within the specific context of that game, where there are very specific deviations from the norm that temporarily change the rankings. A given top tier card might hypothetically be better than a given bottom tier card 95% of the time, but you still have to catch when you're in the 5% scenario.

[FrankJones]

Agreed. As I noted, I have become very rusty in the base game. Until I started playing here back in February or March, it had probably been 5 years since I had played the base game. Hundreds (maybe 1000) of games played with expansions, multi-player, can make one forget the importance of some birds in a 2-player game without expansions.

And yes, even if the Kingbird triggers only once, it's 2 points (and in this case, a useful nest) for a net zero food cost. And it will probably always trigger twice, sometimes more, as in this game when it triggered 4 times.

[kostinen]

In this specific game, the Kingbird is even better since there is the goal of having the most bird in the forest. It means :
- if the opponent play lot of birds (minimum 3) in the forest, you will win lot of food
- if the opponent plays from 0 to 2 birds in the forest, you have a very big chance to win the round goal

Playing the Kingbird gives you high probability to gain something in any case !

[Florrible]

so if I understand correctly, the error wasn't playing the Kingbird as such but playing it in grassland was.

Also I have learnt that Bird Counter tends to be quite a popular bonus card to keep in hand at the start, which I might have done if I was keeping any birds in my starting hand that had a flocking power but none of the cards matched it so it felt kinda risky, although I understand that even having 1 single bird that met the criteria would have gained me points. In the end, it didn't really make a difference as I got 4 points either way.

I'm surprised to see that most people prefer multiplayer and aren't very used to 2 player games with no expansions as that's mostly how I play, real time in arena when I have short breaks at work. I couldn't do any 3+ player games, they take too long and don't fit in that kind of downtime.

I just played a game which I found really unusual as my opponent played almost exclusively pink power birds, and didn't have a bird in their wetland at all until round 3. I replayed the game from their POV to see what their starting hand was and I would have made very different decisions here.

https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=681036713

I would have taken Tree Swallow even if it didn't really tie in to EOR goals except round 4. It's a good bird for that goal though because it has 4 egg space.

I would have also kept Brown headed Cowbird with the hope of grabbing a star nest from the tray either in my first turn or later on (which the player managed to do). I would not have kept the Horned Lark. I don't find that bird very useful personally I think I maybe got to successfully use that pink power only once in my life.

What do you think?

[kostinen]

After reading the thread from Archisian I have been trying to take this game more seriously, watched the recommended Youtube videos about best starting birds and changed my techniques. I started to always build my wetland first whenever possible, the forest when the wetland wasn't immediately possible, and always left the grassland for last.
I had a small winning streak but now I am back to losing.
I just played a game where I felt like I had good cards including my starting hand, but somehow I still lost badly.

If anyone has the time and patience to review it and point out my errors (politely) it's here: https://boardgamearena.com/12/wingspan?table=680520102

You said you build your wetland and forest first, so why did you play Eastern Kingbird in the Grassland when you had no forest birds? You provided no support for your forest by the end of round 1 at all, when you should have had at least 2 forest birds by that point. As an aside, the flocking bonus Bird Counter is usually a better bonus than Platform builder since it is easier to set off with any spare flockers. The only reason to keep Platform Builder instead was if you could support it.

I'm going to suggest a hand fairly different than what the other two commenters said. I'd have kept Grebe, Kingbird, and Chimney Swift for the birds, an invertebrate and fish for food, and finally the Platform Builder since I have two Platform nests in my opening hand as well as a heavy drawing wetland bird plus another wetland bird by its side. Let's look at the differences my hand had from their choices and yours.

Eastern Kingbird is underestimated here. It's a 1 food forest bird that will likely score at least 1 more food right away, which will help a lot with getting out of the early game. There's no reason to sacrifice it for 1 more food because it will already provide that food and take up a key forest slot. As a Bowl nest it also puts you in the round 1 end of goal contest, worth a minimum of 1 point and a maximum of 4. That makes it fairly passable for points on top of its already key role. And because that food is invertebrate, it also provides key support for another underestimated bird in this hand, Chimney Swift.

Chimney Swift's double Invertebrate cost can make an opening hand awkward, especially when other birds take up the Invertebrate price. However, Grebe eats Fish and Kingbird will likely give at least 1 Invertebrate in time to play Swift. Odds are you'll be able to turn 1 Kingbird, turn 2 Grebe, turn 3 gain 1 Invertebrate, and by that point your opponent will have triggered Kingbird at least once for another. (They set it off in 1 turn in the game.) If they hadn't there was nothing stopping you from using the grassland to lay eggs then use Grebe to draw and have at least 1 card in hand as fodder to gain 2 Invertebrate in 1 turn. Given the state of the birdfeeder having 3 Invertebrate (and you can reroll the dice when they're gone), it's a fairly reliable food outlet.

Why do we want Swift at all? It supports the platform bonus as platform nest #2, helps all four end of round goals between its star nest plus ability to move rows, and serves as both your second forest bird and second wetland bird. Assuming your opponent knows what forest birds are, by turn 4 all of your early game objectives are met, to have at least 2 forest birds and a wetland bird (in this case you have 2, so you don't even need to spend eggs for cards.) You should be in a strong position to fight for the first two end of round goals and a promising hope for the other two. You have a playable forest and a strong wetland that gives you good chances to develop.

Nice! I would go for the same three birds at the start.

And what about keeping cherry instead of fish ?

Turn 1 : Play the Kingbird in the forest with the cherry
Turn 2 : Chance to play the Chimney's swift in the grassland if the opponent played in the forest. If not we can gain 1 invertebrate to play Chimney Swift in the turn 3 ( or we can play the Grebe using invertebrate to just reach the same path as Ceaseless)

[Given Chimney's swift is played] Turn 3 (or 4) : Lay eggs and move the Chimney's Swift in the forest. (There is also a low probability case where we can play Grebe and lay eggs the turn after, moving the Chimney's Swift in the Wetland in the turn 5)

[Given the Kingbird & Chimney's Swift are the forest] Turn 4 (or 5) : Gain food for the Grebe (with random extra food), move The Chimney's Swift in the Grasslands

Turn 5 (or 6) : Play the Grebe

Turn 6 (or 7) : Lay eggs and move the Chimney Swift to the Wetland

Turn 7 (or 8) : Draw 4 cards and discard 1

Turn 8 (if not yet done) : Draw 4 cards and discard 1

At this point, we have played 3 birds, we have 1 food (probably 2), 3 cards (probably 6), 4 eggs for the actual round goal and 2 for the next, we have a reasonnable source of food and, most important, we have a very solid source of draw to refine the rest of the game.

After writing it, I'm not 100% sure this path is better but it's an interesting option, especially in the case the opponent play a bird in the forest on turn 1.
I think it gives us the guarantee the reach the two forest bird quickly, no matter the opponent play. I would say the counterpart is that if we have a good bird to pick early in the tray, we will draw without the Grebe set up, but this also means ... we have another good card and it's a very good start !

[Ceaseless]

After reading the thread from Archisian I have been trying to take this game more seriously, watched the recommended Youtube videos about best starting birds and changed my techniques. I started to always build my wetland first whenever possible, the forest when the wetland wasn't immediately possible, and always left the grassland for last.
I had a small winning streak but now I am back to losing.
I just played a game where I felt like I had good cards including my starting hand, but somehow I still lost badly.

If anyone has the time and patience to review it and point out my errors (politely) it's here: https://boardgamearena.com/12/wingspan?table=680520102

You said you build your wetland and forest first, so why did you play Eastern Kingbird in the Grassland when you had no forest birds? You provided no support for your forest by the end of round 1 at all, when you should have had at least 2 forest birds by that point. As an aside, the flocking bonus Bird Counter is usually a better bonus than Platform builder since it is easier to set off with any spare flockers. The only reason to keep Platform Builder instead was if you could support it.

I'm going to suggest a hand fairly different than what the other two commenters said. I'd have kept Grebe, Kingbird, and Chimney Swift for the birds, an invertebrate and fish for food, and finally the Platform Builder since I have two Platform nests in my opening hand as well as a heavy drawing wetland bird plus another wetland bird by its side. Let's look at the differences my hand had from their choices and yours.

Eastern Kingbird is underestimated here. It's a 1 food forest bird that will likely score at least 1 more food right away, which will help a lot with getting out of the early game. There's no reason to sacrifice it for 1 more food because it will already provide that food and take up a key forest slot. As a Bowl nest it also puts you in the round 1 end of goal contest, worth a minimum of 1 point and a maximum of 4. That makes it fairly passable for points on top of its already key role. And because that food is invertebrate, it also provides key support for another underestimated bird in this hand, Chimney Swift.

Chimney Swift's double Invertebrate cost can make an opening hand awkward, especially when other birds take up the Invertebrate price. However, Grebe eats Fish and Kingbird will likely give at least 1 Invertebrate in time to play Swift. Odds are you'll be able to turn 1 Kingbird, turn 2 Grebe, turn 3 gain 1 Invertebrate, and by that point your opponent will have triggered Kingbird at least once for another. (They set it off in 1 turn in the game.) If they hadn't there was nothing stopping you from using the grassland to lay eggs then use Grebe to draw and have at least 1 card in hand as fodder to gain 2 Invertebrate in 1 turn. Given the state of the birdfeeder having 3 Invertebrate (and you can reroll the dice when they're gone), it's a fairly reliable food outlet.

Why do we want Swift at all? It supports the platform bonus as platform nest #2, helps all four end of round goals between its star nest plus ability to move rows, and serves as both your second forest bird and second wetland bird. Assuming your opponent knows what forest birds are, by turn 4 all of your early game objectives are met, to have at least 2 forest birds and a wetland bird (in this case you have 2, so you don't even need to spend eggs for cards.) You should be in a strong position to fight for the first two end of round goals and a promising hope for the other two. You have a playable forest and a strong wetland that gives you good chances to develop.

Nice! I would go for the same three birds at the start.

And what about keeping cherry instead of fish ?

Turn 1 : Play the Kingbird in the forest with the cherry
Turn 2 : Chance to play the Chimney's swift in the grassland if the opponent played in the forest. If not we can gain 1 invertebrate to play Chimney Swift in the turn 3 ( or we can play the Grebe using invertebrate to just reach the same path as Ceaseless)

[Given Chimney's swift is played] Turn 3 (or 4) : Lay eggs and move the Chimney's Swift in the forest. (There is also a low probability case where we can play Grebe and lay eggs the turn after, moving the Chimney's Swift in the Wetland in the turn 5)

[Given the Kingbird & Chimney's Swift are the forest] Turn 4 (or 5) : Gain food for the Grebe (with random extra food), move The Chimney's Swift in the Grasslands

Turn 5 (or 6) : Play the Grebe

Turn 6 (or 7) : Lay eggs and move the Chimney Swift to the Wetland

Turn 7 (or 8) : Draw 4 cards and discard 1

Turn 8 (if not yet done) : Draw 4 cards and discard 1

At this point, we have played 3 birds, we have 1 food (probably 2), 3 cards (probably 6), 4 eggs for the actual round goal and 2 for the next, we have a reasonnable source of food and, most important, we have a very solid source of draw to refine the rest of the game.

After writing it, I'm not 100% sure this path is better but it's an interesting option, especially in the case the opponent play a bird in the forest on turn 1.
I think it gives us the guarantee the reach the two forest bird quickly, no matter the opponent play. I would say the counterpart is that if we have a good bird to pick early in the tray, we will draw without the Grebe set up, but this also means ... we have another good card and it's a very good start !

It's probably slightly more flexible, though my plan was to play Grebe before Swift, because after laying Swift in the Grassland, it was always my intention to go to the Wetland first, since I want to draw before getting food, and I'm not really into using the Grassland for 2 eggs twice when I have little to pay for it anyways, so it would only pop up for end of round wars, which I can handle at will regardless. There's a good chance even if I got Swift down before Grebe instead of moving it to the Grassland after gaining 2 food I'd leave it in the forest to pull 2 food again when moving it to the Wetland with Grebe later on, figuring that the blind food will still end up going somewhere more valuable than the 2 eggs. So I wasn't too picky about which 2 food to drop since I wanted to lay down both of those birds first.

[Ceaseless]

so if I understand correctly, the error wasn't playing the Kingbird as such but playing it in grassland was.

Also I have learnt that Bird Counter tends to be quite a popular bonus card to keep in hand at the start, which I might have done if I was keeping any birds in my starting hand that had a flocking power but none of the cards matched it so it felt kinda risky, although I understand that even having 1 single bird that met the criteria would have gained me points. In the end, it didn't really make a difference as I got 4 points either way.

I'm surprised to see that most people prefer multiplayer and aren't very used to 2 player games with no expansions as that's mostly how I play, real time in arena when I have short breaks at work. I couldn't do any 3+ player games, they take too long and don't fit in that kind of downtime.

I just played a game which I found really unusual as my opponent played almost exclusively pink power birds, and didn't have a bird in their wetland at all until round 3. I replayed the game from their POV to see what their starting hand was and I would have made very different decisions here.

https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=681036713

I would have taken Tree Swallow even if it didn't really tie in to EOR goals except round 4. It's a good bird for that goal though because it has 4 egg space.

I would have also kept Brown headed Cowbird with the hope of grabbing a star nest from the tray either in my first turn or later on (which the player managed to do). I would not have kept the Horned Lark. I don't find that bird very useful personally I think I maybe got to successfully use that pink power only once in my life.

What do you think?

Yes, it was the location of the Kingbird that was the most notable offender. Though some initially overlooked the idea of keeping it at all, that it was played as your first bird after keeping it was never an issue.

That's why Bird Counter is popular. It's actually a low risk bonus since only 1 bird is needed to fulfill anything at all. The nest bonus you kept was much riskier because you only had 1 bird, meaning you needed 3 more to score at all. The population advantage they had wasn't enough to overcome the requirement gap. The only reason I'd have kept it was if I had at least 2 birds in my opening meeting it.

I'm a 2-player person by default, even outside of Wingspan. Wingspan isn't an exception, base game for me as well, largely since that's the format BGA has. Wingspan is just one of my side games I picked up on BGA.

Looking at the game from their perspective, they likely kept the Horned Lark for helping with the first two end of round goals, which is too greedy/unstable in my eyes since they didn't acquire the proper support. I think Tree Swallow is a subpar card, but would have kept it because wetland bird. I'd like to have kept Cowbird, a cheap easy way to snatch of eggs could be nice, but the hand/situation doesn't easily support it. The other card I'd actually keep is Red-Headed Woodpecker (edit 2: I also think this card is underwhelming, but its role here as a forest bird is too essential), with the following plan.

My first three turns after keeping Red-Headed Woodpecker+Tree Swallow with Invertebrate, Seed, and Fruit as well as the Ecologist Bonus would be to draw Pileated Woodpecker, play Red-Headed Woodpecker, and gain a Fruit+Wheat. I'd be a bit worried about my opponent either drawing Woodpecker first or grabbing the Fruit, though by going first you can rule out the Woodpecker being drawn first by drawing it right away. You could save Woodpecker's draw for turn 3 if you're more concerned about them grabbing the Fruit early than the Woodpecker, depending on your knowledge of their priorities. With a basic lay 2 eggs turn 4 and playing Pileated Woodpecker (edit, turn 5, you need to gain food again to acquire enough to cover the Invertebrate portion, so it turns out Fruit or Invertebrate is fine with the Seed pairing, not sure why my brain overlooked that.) You now can avoid even needing to use the Grassland in your early game and rack up points. Unfortunately, there's a good chance your opponent will get a Cavity Nest and use that to get free eggs off of you, but you still get 1 extra egg per shot over them.

[kostinen]

It's probably slightly more flexible, though my plan was to play Grebe before Swift, because after laying Swift in the Grassland, it was always my intention to go to the Wetland first, since I want to draw before getting food, and I'm not really into using the Grassland for 2 eggs twice when I have little to pay for it anyways, so it would only pop up for end of round wars, which I can handle at will regardless. There's a good chance even if I got Swift down before Grebe instead of moving it to the Grassland after gaining 2 food I'd leave it in the forest to pull 2 food again when moving it to the Wetland with Grebe later on, figuring that the blind food will still end up going somewhere more valuable than the 2 eggs. So I wasn't too picky about which 2 food to drop since I wanted to lay down both of those birds first.

Yes probably better to gain more food, I was hesitating. This way let us the posssibility to play a grassland bird before lay eggs again, and then lay one more egg (with the Swift as support)

[FrankJones]

I think Tree Swallow is a subpar card, but would have kept it because wetland bird.

I always thought of the Tree Swallow as a good starter bird for the wetland (or a second wetland bird). 3 points, strong brown power. I am curious why it would be considered subpar.