Bad way of handeling out of time

[Ceaseless]

Obviously, but your post seemed to be saying that only players who are out of time can be described as "holding up" the game, but maybe my interpretation is off.

You said your issue was regarding it applying to everyone, so that's the part I addressed.

I meant that anyone whose turn it is can potentially be described as holding up the game, or not.

If someone has a lot of time left, but they are taking forever to play for seemingly no reason, it's fair to say they are holding up the game.

If someone is out of time, but they've been speeding up and are now making their moves swiftly, it's fair to say they are not holding up the game.

The thread is about kicking players, which is going to require they be the players over time. The factor that decides who is kicked isn't just for a player to be over time, but for them to also be the player responsible for continuing the game at the time of the kicking. So you can't go kicking a player just because they're over time when the game itself is progressing fine, there has to be a delay in the game in the present. If a player is presently moving swiftly, in theory it should be pretty hard to kick them.

This is actually one of the reasons it's possible to give them an extra countdown to work with, as they should be present and able to make a move. Whereas if the countdown was aimed at a player who doesn't even have anything to do, they don't have that same ability. You could even argue they aren't even obligated to be there at that moment because there's nothing for them to do yet, if they had wanted to take the chance to use the restroom or something, this would actually be the better time to do it, when it's not at everyone else's expense.

[tarongot]

Good to see that 90% of the response is useless.
Im not talking about preventing running out of time.
Im talking about what happens when you do.

As stated:
When I run out of time i totaly understand they kick me.

Any response here talking about not joining fast games or using jokers mis the point COMPLETELY.

This response and that mindset contribute to not making anything any better for anyone.

Maybe it is because it is another topic about same. A week ago someone created that one for example: https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=51525. I didn't followed if fully but I don't think anyone proposed any valid solution, and even if someone would, NO ONE WILL IMPLEMENT IT ANYWAY.

There are many ways of abuse on BGA platform, topics about that are created over and over again, and nothing is done - again. This one, that someone wasn't kicked right away, is in my opinion is minor one. Like others already said, you were one who did not meet the requirements you agreed to, and you were one who did not used feature, designed for something else, but commonly used for this, and commonly abused.

[tbhp]

The factor that decides who is kicked isn't just for a player to be over time, but for them to also be the player responsible for continuing the game at the time of the kicking. So you can't go kicking a player just because they're over time when the game itself is progressing fine, there has to be a delay in the game in the present. If a player is presently moving swiftly, in theory it should be pretty hard to kick them.

That's true, and it gives the out of time players a stronger incentive to make their moves, which is a good thing.

Some people would argue though that when several players are out of time, this can make things a bit arbitrary, as it's basically the player who happens to "get caught" who will be kicked out, regardless of how quickly everyone was making their moves.

Then again, if the person kicking out actually cares about the time wasting argument, they could decide to wait specifically for the player they judge to be the most in the wrong.

[RazorOz]

Maybe it is because it is another topic about same. A week ago someone created that one for example: https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=51525. I didn't followed if fully but I don't think anyone proposed any valid solution, and even if someone would, NO ONE WILL IMPLEMENT IT ANYWAY.

There are many ways of abuse on BGA platform, topics about that are created over and over again, and nothing is done - again. This one, that someone wasn't kicked right away, is in my opinion is minor one. Like others already said, you were one who did not meet the requirements you agreed to, and you were one who did not used feature, designed for something else, but commonly used for this, and commonly abused.

The only valid solution that is already implemented is Heat's games always play to conclusion. Tactical timeouts were rife at Heat before it was implemented, now they're non-existent. It was one of the reasons in those days that if someone just clearly wasn't going to play to the game speed I didn't care if they were timed out early, because it saved you just wasting your time in a game you could never win if someone was always going to just time someone out once they knew they couldn't win.

Still, players like the OP are heavily contributing to the problem they want to fix. The people who setup 24 turns a day game want to play fast games, they don't want players who disappear for days, as I've said before it's infuriating in a turn based game to have someone join who clearly had no intention of ever playing at the game speed. Tactical timeouts would be much less of a thing if people joined games of the appropriate speed, because even if you couldn't login for a day for whatever reason, if you were in a game speed of appropriate speed you would recover your clock very quickly, and thus not be sitting in red for the rest of the game for players to time you out whenever they fancy.

[Jellby]

I don't think this works unless you remove the 20 second timer. You would have to immediately expel everyone over time with no warning. Or was there an alternative plan for players to avoid getting expelled?

I don't consider the 20 seconds timer some right you can count on. There's no 20 seconds timer in turn-based games. Expelling everyone immediately (as soon as the the 20 seconds timer for the current player in real-time runs out) looks right to me.

Just to be clear: I don't mean just expelling an out-of-time player who's not the current turn player. I mean expelling the current out-of-time player, and also every other player who's out of time (including yourself).

[ChiefPointThief]

Maybe it is because it is another topic about same. A week ago someone created that one for example: https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=51525. I didn't followed if fully but I don't think anyone proposed any valid solution, and even if someone would, NO ONE WILL IMPLEMENT IT ANYWAY.

There are many ways of abuse on BGA platform, topics about that are created over and over again, and nothing is done - again. This one, that someone wasn't kicked right away, is in my opinion is minor one. Like others already said, you were one who did not meet the requirements you agreed to, and you were one who did not used feature, designed for something else, but commonly used for this, and commonly abused.

The only valid solution that is already implemented is Heat's games always play to conclusion. Tactical timeouts were rife at Heat before it was implemented, now they're non-existent. It was one of the reasons in those days that if someone just clearly wasn't going to play to the game speed I didn't care if they were timed out early, because it saved you just wasting your time in a game you could never win if someone was always going to just time someone out once they knew they couldn't win.

Ding ding ding ding!!!!
“There’s no solution to this problem”

But there is! There’s a zillion of these threads. This same solution is proposed in all of them by ppl like me . There’s always ppl coming and saying this isn’t a solution even after it was finally implemented for at least one game and has proven to have a positive impact. We have evidence! Not opinions, just facts. This solution was put in play and works!

It's up to the other players to take advantage of your vulnerability whenever it suits them.

[tbhp]

There's no 20 seconds timer in turn-based games.

Are you sure about that? I was always under the impression there would be one.

There's been cases where I was out of time in turn based games, and I kept checking the game all the time to try to make sure that even if the other player decided to kick me, I would have that window of time to make my move.

If it's true that the expulsion is immediate, that experience is gonna become even more stressful.

[Jellby]

I'm pretty sure I've expelled people from turn-based games immediately (without timer).

But I don't see the point in checking "all the time". If you are out of time and it's your turn, just play your turn, do not just check. If you're out of time and it's not your turn, you cannot be expelled anyway.

[tbhp]

But I don't see the point in checking "all the time". If you are out of time and it's your turn, just play your turn, do not just check. If you're out of time and it's not your turn, you cannot be expelled anyway.

I mean that I check all the time when it's not my turn. If I go away, the person may show up, make their move and then proceed to expel me while I'm not here. You need to be constantly on your guard in this situation.

The most effective strategy is to constantly look up the person's profile rather than the game itself. Since there will be a window of time between the time they log on and the time they will enter the game, decide on a move and play it, this extends the time window you have by a precious minute or so, at the very least. So you are a bit less on the edge than if it was just 20 seconds.

[Jellby]

As soon as as it's your turn, you should get some additional time (for most games, at least) and hopefully get back to positive, so you cannot be expelled.

If despite the additional time you're still out of time, and the other player is just waiting to expel you, even if you get your 20 seconds timer (which I don't think you get), you'd only be able to prevent expulsion by being there (and finishing your turn) during those 20 seconds... I find it very unlikely that you would happen to hit that "sweet spot" by randomly checking frequently, unless you basically keep the table open and watch it live.