first clue in 2 player

[Stroom]

Quite obvious that you are stuck with low clues and a filled hand because you chose to clue inefficiently earlier.

LOL. I am usually the one who is more efficient with the clues. I'd say I can handle the hands pretty well if the opponent doesn't play too weirdly.

What you are describing is the main issue. You can only play as efficient as your partner will understand you. As you described i could not use the early save with you to create silent saves because you won't follow this clue and discard as if nothing happened. I have to adapt and in this process i am losing efficiency.

The key in creating silents is maximizing efficiency to be able to survive a locked hand later. By clueing less efficient as described by you i surely have to let 3s go because i cannot afford having a locked hand later.

Your clue is completely crazy and most of the time, unnecessary. It has very many different meanings. What you think is clear to you, is not to the partner.

You use 1 clue and then 3 clue ->
1. Does it mean that after I play the 1, I can play the leftmost card as that is a 2 and then play the 3? This is one of the best efficient versions that some people might use.
2. Does it mean that my chop is a duplicate 2? So I should discard and then you use a 2 clue to mark the rest of the cards between the 3 and chop. This would mean that the 3 you saved is also the same color as the 1 I played and the 2 clue you give later, is also of that color. Because that is an efficient way to use clues.
3. Does it means that you are waiting for me to clue your cards for some reason? Dunno.

I haven't seen anyone mention conventions like yours - marking a number so out of place that it means that the cards right to it must be saved. It just does not make sense as there are better ways to play it AND letting one 3 go is a much smaller risk than all the confusion you are creating out of it.

What if one of the 2s you save this way is the same you are holding in your hand and your partner also marked them with a 2? There's just so many questions. These moves are confusing, misleading and have so many different possibilities that contradict each other in how to respond. Which will cause bombs or wasted clues.

When to let 3s go and when not, is a key element. If you start with a clogged up hand like the example you gave, letting that one 3 possibly go is just a better move as in the very beginning of the game, the chance of the other 3 being the last card in the deck is less than 2%. During the game you most likely will have to let other 3s go anyway due to hands being clogged up etc. So why start the game by uninformed blind saving of a 3 when 2s and 5s are more important?

I'm pretty sure if we gather statistics of different harder decks, saving 3s without information is more risky.

[Wreckage]

This is a valid statement. Although I looked at 10 hands that were a random sample, I didn't list the other 4 hands where 1 was clearly a better clue.

So it's basically a 50-50 where half of the cases are definitely better than 1s and we argue about the other 50%. And in those cases it is also questionable if a color clue would even matter anyhow. So... Overall it's like 1 start 75% vs 25% color start. And you have to consider that you don't know your hand when you give the first clue.

I still like the red better, I’m just saying that all data isn’t presented here, and sometimes the 1 clue first will be better. We focused on these hands, but there are many other factors that we never discussed.

If a lone 5 can be marked during the opening color clues, then it’s better 80-90% of the time. So, while it's true that only 44% of the time you have a duplicate of one of these 1s, sometimes you may have a matching sequence of plays that can play on that color. That advance notice of which 1 it is can be helpful. Every 8th hand you will be holding 2 duplicates of these 1s. More often you will need to spend a clue to prevent double discard.

Looking at it in the most simple light.
starting with 1 = I have two unknown 1s
starting with color, color = I have two 1s, I know what they are, I also have other cards saved, I know my discards can only be the 3 other colors.
If you bomb or fix, you are not back to even with this "wasted" clue, you are way behind.

Example: The listed hand 4 3 2 5 1 2 .

I would start with 1 clue here and continue with 3. Why would I give an early 3 clue save here? Early save = all the cards closer to the chop must be important. So my partner takes 3 silent saves and continues discarding the 4. I am able to save the 2s, 5s and the 3 with just 1 clue. This method is far superior than the listed methods so far.

This is an interesting convention. As long as your little private circle agree on what things mean, you can come up with lots of different ways of playing. I cannot play this way because our conventions are different, but my little private circle has tricks of our own. It’s frustrating to me that BGA doesn’t allow you to mark your own cards. I would like to mark these saved cards with an “X” or something so that I remember not to discard them. This is a separate issue than neg info.

Stroom is actually on the opposite side here it seems, thinking here that’s it’s worth an extra token (possibly 2 tokens) for more knowledge on the saved cards. Although I like to save 3s, I would be inclined to let this one go unless it matches a 1 or 2 that we already have.

On the example 4 3 2 5 1 2, I would give the 2 first, then 1, then 5. I’m favoring the 2 before the 5 because it’s possible I might not need to give a 5 clue at all.
I don’t like the idea that 5 clue first means it’s fine to discard first turn, if the hand is X X X R5 R1 R2, clue 5 then red is very efficient.

One thing, let’s make sure to not insult each other, we just play with different conventions.

[Stroom]

I still like the red better, I’m just saying that all data isn’t presented here, and sometimes the 1 clue first will be better. We focused on these hands, but there are many other factors that we never discussed.

If a lone 5 can be marked during the opening color clues, then it’s better 80-90% of the time. So, while it's true that only 44% of the time you have a duplicate of one of these 1s, sometimes you may have a matching sequence of plays that can play on that color. That advance notice of which 1 it is can be helpful. Every 8th hand you will be holding 2 duplicates of these 1s. More often you will need to spend a clue to prevent double discard.

Looking at it in the most simple light.
starting with 1 = I have two unknown 1s
starting with color, color = I have two 1s, I know what they are, I also have other cards saved, I know my discards can only be the 3 other colors.
If you bomb or fix, you are not back to even with this "wasted" clue, you are way behind.

This kind of conventions is not very out of this world of possibilities. But more often that just wastes one extra clue whereas you can just risk with the other player having the same kind of 1 in hand or not. Planning ahead marking the multi 3 - well, that can happen naturally with a color play clue after playing 1s and 2s anyway. Or letting it go is only about 2% threat.

This is an interesting convention. As long as your little private circle agree on what things mean, you can come up with lots of different ways of playing. I cannot play this way because our conventions are different, but my little private circle has tricks of our own.

I looked at his game history... It's 20 abandoned games with one 30 point game finished. Always playing with the same partner too. So apparently this convention is not always fruitful. I viewed a few games. They had some interesting moves but at the end, both hands were clogged up, not enough clues and both players bombed some cards in a very weird situation (due to being clogged up and had to do something to save the situation... or the convention does not have rules in how to deal with clogged hands I guess) and at 2 bombs they just abandoned. So seems like it does not work out as much.

Stroom is actually on the opposite side here it seems, thinking here that’s it’s worth an extra token (possibly 2 tokens) for more knowledge on the saved cards. Although I like to save 3s, I would be inclined to let this one go unless it matches a 1 or 2 that we already have.

Well, it is not as much of willing to expend an extra token than just thinking that the convention of cluing 3 out of the blue is misleading and doesn't really work. The usual case of 2-1-5 there would just work best.

On the example 4 3 2 5 1 2, I would give the 2 first, then 1, then 5. I’m favoring the 2 before the 5 because it’s possible I might not need to give a 5 clue at all.

This is right. Also, if the other player draws more 5s after playing the 1s, maybe 2s, you might be able to mark another 5 with 1 clue. Low chance but better than cluing it right away.

I don’t like the idea that 5 clue first means it’s fine to discard first turn, if the hand is X X X R5 R1 R2, clue 5 then red is very efficient.

In this case, you can use 1-2-5 provided that the X are not 2 or 5 (in that case 2-1-red, still 3 clues but the 5 is not marked by number - not a problem yet). In your case you would use 5-red-2? Same number of clues but in the end you just mark the 5 with red.
Why 5 first might mean discard - very often the partner might have duplicate 1s with one of them being at the chop. You want to tell them that they can safely discard ASAP in order to get a better more efficient clue. Situations like you described, are a bit less common and using 3 clues for that is the only way for that either way. So letting 5-first allows you to start the game faster.

[Wreckage]

I don’t like the idea that 5 clue first means it’s fine to discard first turn, if the hand is X X X R5 R1 R2, clue 5 then red is very efficient.

In this case, you can use 1-2-5 provided that the X are not 2 or 5 (in that case 2-1-red, still 3 clues but the 5 is not marked by number - not a problem yet). In your case you would use 5-red-2? Same number of clues but in the end you just mark the 5 with red.
Why 5 first might mean discard - very often the partner might have duplicate 1s with one of them being at the chop. You want to tell them that they can safely discard ASAP in order to get a better more efficient clue. Situations like you described, are a bit less common and using 3 clues for that is the only way for that either way. So letting 5-first allows you to start the game faster.

Oh right, I used to play that 1 before 2 always means 2 plays as well, it's handy in a situation like this. Very useful. I got away from this "rule" because there are so many times when I want to get the 1s started. It's a pace problem if they have four 1s or something. Now that you point this out, I think I should go back to using it except if they have three 1s or more. It only matters if the 2 clue hits chop anyway, otherwise it's a play for sure.

[Wreckage]

Had some fun in this game today, when my partner drew M4 and we had no clues, so we just start playing.
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=223455258
A few things to note:
1.This is on difficult so every multi must be saved. Black Powder is on. Flamboyants are off. Toughest settings on BGA.
2. The 4 clue at the start, I know it’s black when it’s first marked.
3. I did start with color instead of 1s, because there is no way I’m letting R3 go. It was helpful on this game.
4. My partner can't clue M1 when it first shows up, because our multi clue means something else.
5. We save almost all 3s, so we are not confused when they are saved.
6. My early clue of 2s midgame is not confusing, because we don't finesse like this.
7. On move 33 when my partner receives play clue for W5, he discards. He immediately told me it was a misclick, so we have one cheat.
8. When I play M1, my partner knows he has M2, M4, and M5. The M2 play is a total guess, but otherwise, very smart play.
9. A couple of our clues at the end tell slot plays.

[Stroom]

Oh right, I used to play that 1 before 2 always means 2 plays as well, it's handy in a situation like this. Very useful. I got away from this "rule" because there are so many times when I want to get the 1s started. It's a pace problem if they have four 1s or something. Now that you point this out, I think I should go back to using it except if they have three 1s or more. It only matters if the 2 clue hits chop anyway, otherwise it's a play for sure.

2-1 pace in the beginning isn't that bad. You should get to know your own hand too - maybe the opponent starts with a color that makes things easier for you or shows that you have no 1s or whatever. The first 2 moves are better for getting to know both hands and from there on, you can speed up.

Sometimes with 2 1s, yes, colors might be better. But usually when the 1s are further from chop. With 3+ 1s, no point in marking one by one.

But if you are in a hurry with the 1 clue: if the 2 is not on chop, you can just start with 1 and wait some turns until you use the 2 clue (maybe marking a newer 2 for play or marking the 2 when it reaches chop).

[Qualitaetsgarant]

Your clue is completely crazy and most of the time, unnecessary. It has very many different meanings. What you think is clear to you, is not to the partner.

I can say this again and again, it is only crazy to you because you play a different style of hanabi. Here at BGA we have only very few commonly agreed clues, thats why I suggested you to find a partner to play with on a regular basis.

With the suggested opening clues 1 - 2 - 5 you are willing to pay 5-6 clues just for the opening. Maybe your partner doesnt even have good clues to give and he is forced to clue you back again and again. Being down to 2 clues at the start is not what i would call "being very efficient considering clueing".

[Stroom]

I can say this again and again, it is only crazy to you because you play a different style of hanabi. Here at BGA we have only very few commonly agreed clues, thats why I suggested you to find a partner to play with on a regular basis.

With the suggested opening clues 1 - 2 - 5 you are willing to pay 5-6 clues just for the opening. Maybe your partner doesnt even have good clues to give and he is forced to clue you back again and again. Being down to 2 clues at the start is not what i would call "being very efficient considering clueing".

TBH if I look at your game history of Hanabi, you end up abandoning 80% of the games you play. Usually players who don't play to the end of each game, don't really face the harder challenges of playing harder decks. Also, if you want to promote how your way of playing is superior, you should maybe play through every game you play and see how it helps your elo score.

I have some partners I play with regularly. We don't coordinate when to play but when we do play, we play through every game. I'd say 80% of them are 30 points, 10 % 29, 10% 28.

1-2-5 strategy really depends on what players have in their hand. The most common course of action is 2-2-1-1 (4 clues) ... play 1s ... give color clues (marking some crucial cards for later) OR if out of cards discard chop or if opponent out of playables, mark chop cars for saving. Using a 5 is pretty much the last clue you use when you can't make the opponent play or you really need to save 5s NOW. Overall, it just keeps working at a 90-95% efficiency depending on the partner. And I don't see yours actually working in the long run as your abandon rate is so high.

The last 3 games I played with my favourite partner:
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=222728881
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=222726852
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=222725511
All 30 and all very efficient.

[Qualitaetsgarant]

It is so cute that you keep refering to my abandon rate.

You don't realize that i play a different challenge at hanabi.

[Stroom]

What challenge is it then? To me, it seems like your actual game style is at a much lower level than what you make it seem to be with the posts here. So far I haven't seen a description of an incoherent convention, just fractions that do not seem to match together well enough to handle the general corner cases that you eventually run into, in almost every game. And when looking at the games you have abandoned lately, they seem like the conventions you preach, didn't really work out so you'd rather abandon than try to make it work with better established conventions that actually work in 2p...