Two actions mostly all the time please
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Re: Two actions mostly all the time please
No man, I am serious, it's that important. At the top level, tempo is everything. The sell card action is pivotal in all games in every format and player count. Every game is decided how you manipulate the tempo, that's why you can't waste cards.
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Papa Sunshine
- Posts: 3
- Joined: 11 July 2023, 21:50
Re: Two actions mostly all the time please
I'm learning more and more as I play more games against 500+ ELO players that a slow-tempo style of play is very common. Hoard cards and terraform abilities and drag the game out as long as possible so that you can end it on your terms with an action-heavy final generation. It's a very effective but also very unfun way of playing.
I've kind of accepted that I have no desire to get into the highest levels of play if it means that many of my two-player games will drag out for 90+ minutes because terraforming is non-optimal in several situations. I suggest just sticking to friendly games if you don't want to worry about this style of play because unfortunately it's the more optimal approach in the majority of games.
I've kind of accepted that I have no desire to get into the highest levels of play if it means that many of my two-player games will drag out for 90+ minutes because terraforming is non-optimal in several situations. I suggest just sticking to friendly games if you don't want to worry about this style of play because unfortunately it's the more optimal approach in the majority of games.
Re: Two actions mostly all the time please
Hey Rook, been a while since we last chatted but I figured I’d drop some of that top player perspective you were talking about for any one who cares about hearing that sort of thing from a rank 1 player.
So, first of all, the game is designed to allow players to to take a single action or two actions in order to best facilitate their line of play and, for competitive purposes, defend the line appropriately. Enforcing only one action leaves floating power available for Energy Tapping, while enforcing two might leave plants floating to be hit by an Asteroid. Players should take the number of actions, for competitive purposes, that best protects their line of play and provides the most competitive game play.
That being said, as this was a practice that originated with the original four or five 2k+ rated players on Steam (with input from some 1900 and 1800 rated players as well), I was there for that original discussion about speeding up gameplay. The intent behind coming up with the two action agreement was to be able to play 30 minute timers (mostly in 2 player) because with the best fundamental competitive sequencing at the time the standard line of play would be for first position to take 2 actions and claim important bonuses or milestones, and second position would take one and play would proceed one by one from there on out for the rest of the gen as second position attempted to secure its natural advantage of winning priority to end the generation while first position had used its natural advantage to claim a milestone, ocean into conversion, or secure a bonus bump. This made games take a long time and 10-12 minutes of timer could be wasted per game per player simply passing priority back and forth wasting precious seconds each pass of priority.
Playing 30 minute timers and fast games was largely untenable, so, a workaround was discussed and eventually reached, though this workaround had its own inherent flaw and technically existed outside the rules of the game itself (and could, from a certain perspective, be considered “cheating”). In order for the game play to speed up the player in second position essentially had to, voluntarily, concede a free tempo (action, or stall that would be held in reserve under fundamentally correct sequencing conditions) to the player in first position and follow 2 actions with 2 actions. Play would then proceed 2 by 2 (except to sequence properly to not float a single power or float plants into plant hate, etc) until reaching near the end of the gen and then position 2 would take only one action to return the game to it’s normal and natural sequencing flow to secure priority to end the generation. This was something we feared would be abusable by first position at the time we discussed the protocol in 2019 as they are essentially “stealing” a tempo of action from position 2 by convincing position 2 to take 2 actions, but as this has a rather limited impact on games and only was relevant in game states where both players had exactly equal action economy during the generation it was concluded that this solution was the best that could be done as a workaround at the time to increase the speed of gameplay on Steam and allow 30 minute timers in 2 player.
On BGA, as there is no fixed amount of time for a whole game but rather time limits based on turn/action the agreement protocol for speeding up gameplay doesn’t really fit with BGA gameplay since it’s purpose for existing (30 minute total game timer) also doesn’t exist. As such there is no need for any 2 action agreement on BGA. Moreover, on Steam lately, the two action protocol has indeed become something players in first position are now using to try and gain unfair competitive advantages and “cheat” (if that’s your perspective on that sort of thing) second position’s inherent game design advantage away from them as well as leading to a pretty shameful amount of toxic and inappropriate behavior from those players in first position as they attempt to browbeat opponents in second position to give away free wins to the player in first position by playing in a fundamentally unsound (from a competitive perspective) fashion. While a house rule such as 2 actions can be beneficial and provide a much improved entertainment experience the simple fact of the matter is that due to BGA’s clock design there is no need for such an arrangement on BGA at all. And, as we can see from the devolution into hypocrisy and toxicity from the use of such an arrangement on Steam, it’s not necessarily a good idea in the first place as it would artificially impose a fundamentally non competitive structure to sequencing during a generation that leads to bad behavior from players who lack understanding. Hope this has helped mate! I’ll still be taking 2s when my opponent takes 2s except when it’s fundamentally correct to take only 1 action because I like to play faster games, but I certainly won’t try to force this style on anyone when I’m well aware that it’s fundamentally unsound and can lead to it’s own issues that detract from the enjoyment of the game.
So, first of all, the game is designed to allow players to to take a single action or two actions in order to best facilitate their line of play and, for competitive purposes, defend the line appropriately. Enforcing only one action leaves floating power available for Energy Tapping, while enforcing two might leave plants floating to be hit by an Asteroid. Players should take the number of actions, for competitive purposes, that best protects their line of play and provides the most competitive game play.
That being said, as this was a practice that originated with the original four or five 2k+ rated players on Steam (with input from some 1900 and 1800 rated players as well), I was there for that original discussion about speeding up gameplay. The intent behind coming up with the two action agreement was to be able to play 30 minute timers (mostly in 2 player) because with the best fundamental competitive sequencing at the time the standard line of play would be for first position to take 2 actions and claim important bonuses or milestones, and second position would take one and play would proceed one by one from there on out for the rest of the gen as second position attempted to secure its natural advantage of winning priority to end the generation while first position had used its natural advantage to claim a milestone, ocean into conversion, or secure a bonus bump. This made games take a long time and 10-12 minutes of timer could be wasted per game per player simply passing priority back and forth wasting precious seconds each pass of priority.
Playing 30 minute timers and fast games was largely untenable, so, a workaround was discussed and eventually reached, though this workaround had its own inherent flaw and technically existed outside the rules of the game itself (and could, from a certain perspective, be considered “cheating”). In order for the game play to speed up the player in second position essentially had to, voluntarily, concede a free tempo (action, or stall that would be held in reserve under fundamentally correct sequencing conditions) to the player in first position and follow 2 actions with 2 actions. Play would then proceed 2 by 2 (except to sequence properly to not float a single power or float plants into plant hate, etc) until reaching near the end of the gen and then position 2 would take only one action to return the game to it’s normal and natural sequencing flow to secure priority to end the generation. This was something we feared would be abusable by first position at the time we discussed the protocol in 2019 as they are essentially “stealing” a tempo of action from position 2 by convincing position 2 to take 2 actions, but as this has a rather limited impact on games and only was relevant in game states where both players had exactly equal action economy during the generation it was concluded that this solution was the best that could be done as a workaround at the time to increase the speed of gameplay on Steam and allow 30 minute timers in 2 player.
On BGA, as there is no fixed amount of time for a whole game but rather time limits based on turn/action the agreement protocol for speeding up gameplay doesn’t really fit with BGA gameplay since it’s purpose for existing (30 minute total game timer) also doesn’t exist. As such there is no need for any 2 action agreement on BGA. Moreover, on Steam lately, the two action protocol has indeed become something players in first position are now using to try and gain unfair competitive advantages and “cheat” (if that’s your perspective on that sort of thing) second position’s inherent game design advantage away from them as well as leading to a pretty shameful amount of toxic and inappropriate behavior from those players in first position as they attempt to browbeat opponents in second position to give away free wins to the player in first position by playing in a fundamentally unsound (from a competitive perspective) fashion. While a house rule such as 2 actions can be beneficial and provide a much improved entertainment experience the simple fact of the matter is that due to BGA’s clock design there is no need for such an arrangement on BGA at all. And, as we can see from the devolution into hypocrisy and toxicity from the use of such an arrangement on Steam, it’s not necessarily a good idea in the first place as it would artificially impose a fundamentally non competitive structure to sequencing during a generation that leads to bad behavior from players who lack understanding. Hope this has helped mate! I’ll still be taking 2s when my opponent takes 2s except when it’s fundamentally correct to take only 1 action because I like to play faster games, but I certainly won’t try to force this style on anyone when I’m well aware that it’s fundamentally unsound and can lead to it’s own issues that detract from the enjoyment of the game.
Re: Two actions mostly all the time please
It does slow down endgames significantly
Re: Two actions mostly all the time please
In "the highest levels" games often take below 30 minutes so don't worry about that. And heavy engine building definitely isn't the optimal approach, I'd argue it's exact oppositePapa Sunshine wrote: ↑11 July 2024, 18:05 I'm learning more and more as I play more games against 500+ ELO players that a slow-tempo style of play is very common. Hoard cards and terraform abilities and drag the game out as long as possible so that you can end it on your terms with an action-heavy final generation. It's a very effective but also very unfun way of playing.
I've kind of accepted that I have no desire to get into the highest levels of play if it means that many of my two-player games will drag out for 90+ minutes because terraforming is non-optimal in several situations. I suggest just sticking to friendly games if you don't want to worry about this style of play because unfortunately it's the more optimal approach in the majority of games.
Last edited by Kulikk on 11 September 2024, 20:28, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Two actions mostly all the time please
By quite a bit. And not just endgames, but the whole game. I can’t fault players for wanting to play correctly, but I also don’t like my time being wasted and won’t choose to play with players who won’t respect that time is a limited thing and none of us have an infinite supply of it. It’s nice to play 2 by 2 until moments when a single action must be taken to play correctly.
Re: Two actions mostly all the time please
Thank you jaymc for your post, I treasure them all, you should start a thread with link to all your online articles. It’s been a while, me myself just got back to TM, can’t wait to see some of your games here whenever they decide to put 2p on for arena, as it is far more technical in 2p and your awesome post is just a tiny piece of all the knowledge we collected over the years.
In 2p engine is not optimal but I love it when I get to catch people off guard with my engine play when they are not expecting it and outscaling them in mid game especially with infinite cash from media and such.
In 2p engine is not optimal but I love it when I get to catch people off guard with my engine play when they are not expecting it and outscaling them in mid game especially with infinite cash from media and such.
Re: Two actions mostly all the time please
I’m not a fan of the BGA interface at the moment but it’s a lot less buggy so I have considered switching to playing here some. There are plenty of strong folks already here though, Aspirin, Threadpacifist, Kulik, these are some of the absolute best players in the world (and in many cases some of these examples are players I consider stronger than myself, Aspirin certainly who would be maybe my pick for best player of all time depending on the day you ask me), so there’s no shortage of BGA talent at the top level for sure. Happy to see ya again mate! Been too long.RoyalRook wrote: ↑12 September 2024, 00:07 Thank you jaymc for your post, I treasure them all, you should start a thread with link to all your online articles. It’s been a while, me myself just got back to TM, can’t wait to see some of your games here whenever they decide to put 2p on for arena, as it is far more technical in 2p and your awesome post is just a tiny piece of all the knowledge we collected over the years.
In 2p engine is not optimal but I love it when I get to catch people off guard with my engine play when they are not expecting it and outscaling them in mid game especially with infinite cash from media and such.
Re: Two actions mostly all the time please
really hoping this can be added as an optional variant
it's such a great option to speed up async play for those that want it
it's such a great option to speed up async play for those that want it