Upgrades?

Tournaments organization / Organisation des tournois
Post Reply
RobertBr
Posts: 667
Joined: 08 July 2016, 15:57

Upgrades?

Post by RobertBr »

Is it possible to know when some additional features might be added. In particular I am thinking of:

*Ability to handle a round based tournament to allow round robin style simultaneous play with more than 10 players.

*A format (rounds would do this) which allowed more than 2 players in a game.
User avatar
sprockitz
Posts: 666
Joined: 23 October 2014, 02:22

Re: Upgrades?

Post by sprockitz »

RobertBr wrote:Is it possible to know when some additional features might be added. In particular I am thinking of:

*Ability to handle a round based tournament to allow round robin style simultaneous play with more than 10 players.

*A format (rounds would do this) which allowed more than 2 players in a game.
The 1st one would be trivial to do, but I don't think it is planned. Round Robin was limited to 10 for a reason...don't want too many games starting at once. I hope that a 2 stage tournament will come at some point to accommodate a round robin style with more than 10 players, so you play several games simultaneously in round robin fashion with a subgroup of the tournament with subgroup winners advancing to a final round robin (or a knockout stage).

Greater than 2 players has long been requested, but there are some serious challenges with how to deal with such tournaments. A big one being how to deal with players who abandon a game, which would also drive the format for a tournament. Knockout would be ruined by abandoning players as it is impossible to say which of the other players should advance. A round robin type approach is probably the most practical as it would minimize the impact of abandons, but still there would be situations where the abandons don't impact others equally.
User avatar
sprockitz
Posts: 666
Joined: 23 October 2014, 02:22

Re: Upgrades?

Post by sprockitz »

Here is how I would make a multi-stage round robin.

There would be 1 input variable to determine number groups (and number of subsequent knockout rounds), which is number of players signed up. We will call this p.

I would set the standard group size to 6, but this would vary from 5-9 based on total number in the tournament (mostly 5 or 6 unless tournaments are very small).

The algorithm to determine number of groups (g) would be:

temp = ceiling(p/6);
if p/5 < temp
g = max(1, temp - 1); %Never want less than 1 group
else
g = temp;
end

In words this means if there are 9 or less players they go into a single group...so it would be equivalent to the current round robin format. If at least 10 join number of players is divided by 6 to get number of groups (number of groups will round up as long as it allows each group to still have at least 5 players, otherwise it will round down).

The result is this: 2-9 players: 1 group, 10-14: 2 groups, 15-19: 3 groups, 20-24: 4 groups...once you reach 20 the p/5 condition will never be met so it will just be ceiling(p/6) controlling things, which means all groups would be 5 or 6 players with 20+ players. So the only groups larger than 6 occur with 7-9 players (1 group of 7-9), 13 or 14 (1 or 2 groups of 7), and 19 (2 groups of 6, 1 of 7).

Then once the round robin is complete all winners advance to a knockout stage. These players would be seeded based on the following criteria:
1. Most points ( 1pt per win, 1/2 per tie as with current system)
2. Least games played (since not all groups will be the same size someone with 4 points in 4 games should be ranked above someone with 4 points in 5 games).
3. Point Diff in Games
4. Random/Elo...whatever you want to break a tie.

This creates a fairly straightforward 2 round system with a group stage followed by a knockout stage. Wildcards could be added to get to a number of players equal to the nearest 2^x >= g, so no byes would occur in the knockout stage. For wildcards you'd take all the 2nd place teams and apply the above criteria.

96 players would be a good practical limit to prevent the knockout stage from dragging on for too long (limits it to 16 players).

For initial assignment to groups, I recommend random as this seems ideal for common tournaments. Some tournaments you'll get a tougher than normal bracket, some easier, but it would provide more of a chance for an average player to make a run into the knockout stage, which I think can make it more fun for everyone. For a more formal championship an Elo based ordering could be implemented...players ranked 1:g (where g is number of groups) go into pools 1:g, then players g+1:2g go in groups g:1, then repeat the snake.

To me I like this better than both Swiss or knockout...

It is superior to knockout first of all b/c it both provides average players with a few more meaningful games (1/2 the players are 1 and done in a knockout, here you might advance with a loss) It also cuts down on total tournament time by compressing the 1st 2-3 knockout rounds into a simultaneous round robin style.

It is superior to Swiss b/c it shortens the total time by getting through several games simultaneously, it still gives the opportunity for multiple games against players of different ability, but the tournament does not drag out for those with no chance of winning the way it does in a Swiss when you've already been eliminated from a top 3 spot.
User avatar
veme
Posts: 90
Joined: 27 January 2015, 05:39

Re: Upgrades?

Post by veme »

I love this idea, sprockitz. I would add that it would be nice to see a 2-round universal tournament system, so you can set it up how you want.

Swiss -> Knockout
RR -> Knockout

Even the following are interesting for various reasons:

Swiss -> RR (Make sure top players play against each other)
RR -> RR (RR format without having to play 90 games at once)

Although I think the other setups, like anything starting with a Knockout, or a double Swiss (and strangely RR -> Swiss), are harder to defend. So maybe not completely universal. :)


And as long as we are talking tournament upgrades here are my other dreams:

1. Option for forcing players to play two games against every opponent, each getting to go first once. For balance, especially in games like Hive and Chess. This would be a nice option in non-tournament games too, sometimes you want to take turns switching colors. Also, basically just an extension of this, option for X number of game long series (maybe just for Knockout finals, maybe for whole round).

2. Real-time tournament system where players are given windows and must schedule a time to play with their opponents. They then play in real-time at the specified date and time. This allows for truly international real-time tournaments, and solves the fairness issue of turn-based tournaments where people have different amounts of time to think about moves due to the specifics of their day to day lives, or even have trouble with running out of time. Obviously this is a bit more complex than the first change, but it would be amazing for serious competition.
Pseudomonas
Posts: 19
Joined: 23 November 2015, 14:43

Re: Upgrades?

Post by Pseudomonas »

Totally agree with veme.
I have a question about ties in tournaments. What happens if people are ties in knockout or swiss? And how the winner is decided if in round robin several players scores the same number of points?
RobertBr
Posts: 667
Joined: 08 July 2016, 15:57

Re: Upgrades?

Post by RobertBr »

When I thought of rounds I was not thinking of a group stage followed by a knock-out. That it would be possible to offer within the present system by inviting people from a series of limited number Swiss (if I have time I may even attempt to run one over the summer).

I was thinking rather that each round would consist of groups. For example for n=20 players:

Round 1 is four groups of n=5 players each, randomly assorted.
Round 2 is four groups of n=5 players, assigned so seeds 1-5-9-13-17 play in group 1.
Round 3 is the same as round 2.

Such a system sifts people in a very similar way to a Swiss. For n=20 it would provide a fairly clear result after 3 rounds.
It would allow the very nice effect where you play multiple matches simultaneously, so a round takes only 10 days as in the Round Robin, but would accomodate more players.

However it does have some obvious problems to sort out:
How to deal with fewer matches (you cannot treat this as a tie breaker, the effect of not playing a match is to deprive one player of a point (potentially 10-20% of the points available), you would have to give players in the small group either a bye or multiply their wins by a factor, 1.25 for an n=4 group in a n=5 tournament.
How much control do you give to tournament organisers in terms of number of rounds and size of groups.
Is there a danger the same players play each other repeatedly, should the system over-ride this.
Post Reply

Return to “Tournaments / Les tournois”