Help needed: Is this considered cheating?

[Setsuna Jr]

I was told by the moderator that I discussed a strategy with my mate before the game started, I am considered cheating, and would be severely punished by doing that.

The story is, we were playing a 2v2 card game involving an exchange of 1 card with your mate. So I asked my mate, I would always give you my A, if I have only 1 A out of 4, will you do the same? The purpose of the exchange is to get more information how good your mate's hands are.

On the other hand, If this strategy is cheating, I am wondering what if my mate figures that out by himself during the game and follows, is it considered cheating? If not, then, that basically means, if one figures out a strategy by himself, it is not cheating; but if you teach others those strategy in advance, you are cheating.

What's ironic is, the one who reported me cheating, was discussing strategy with her teammate as well. Something like you should have played that card. So it seems clear to me that the moderator thinks discussing the current game on what card one should have played is ok, discuss a strategy on what card one should exchange is not ok. The whole thing seems very illogical and stupid. Do I miss anything?

[MoiMagnus]

(Not a moderator)

My interpretation of the moderation choice is that
[1] Discussing strategies is allowed.
[2] Setting up conventions to communicate hidden information is cheating.

Example of things that would be a convention: "If I give you an odd card, that means that X, but if I give you an even card, then that means that Y".

In this precise example, I'd say that "Giving your only A to your teammate is a good idea" qualifies as a strategy, but "Always giving you A if you have only one" qualifies as a convention. The difference being that if your teammate doesn't give you an A, in the first case you can assume that he doesn't have a single A, but he might have followed a different strategy so you're not sure; while on the second case you know that your teammate cannot have a single A in hand, as you agreed to it beforehand.

But the line is muddy, and IRL very dependent from games to games, and Tichu being an old traditional game, I'm pretty sure a lot of peoples have a strong opinion on what is allowed and what is not. (For example in Contract Bridge, you are allowed to almost every convention, but they must be publicly known by your opponents)

[Setsuna Jr]

Thank you for your timely and professional explanation. I see your logic why this is a convention, I am not denying that is exactly the information I want to exchange with my teammate. And even if I did not say it, I think a smart player can figure it our soon enough.

I am new to professional card games, but I think, once people know these strategy, it is very easy to figure out themselves. So the question is for a game asking you to communicate information with your teammate through exchanging a card like tichu, is it cheating to bring up a convention? It seems there is no way to prevent it, since you cannot prevent people from learning conventions.

And for this particular game of course our discussion are public, that's how the one who reported me knew

[Setsuna Jr]

And this is really a blurring border. What if one discussed the game with his mate, telling him that you should have played that card first always. That could build a convention between the two as well. I think it is not wise to accuse and convict other players as cheaters, when the issue is around a blurring border, unless there is already a rule preventing it. Or else any discussion could be interpreted into a convention forming process, who is safe from that? For example "Giving your only A to your teammate is a good idea", could be interpreted into implying a convention because it's reasonable to follow a good strategy, the purpose of your bring it up is to make a convention. Remember the moderators do not ask for your explanation or intention, they guess and interpret it by themselves without consulting you. Maybe the only safe way is to keep the mouth shut, then so much social element for a boardgame eh?

[N_Faker]

What you have presented is too vague to give a proper answer.

Can you link the report?

[MoiMagnus]

but I think, once people know these strategy, it is very easy to figure out themselves.

Is it though? This strategy is good but not "fully optimal", so you have no guaranty that your partner will stop at the same level of thinking.

I don't know Tichu past the basic rules, but the most common situation statistically is that both of you have a single A, so if both of you apply this strategy, you just exchange A and lose on the opportunity to improve your hands. Indeed, if you have a single A, there is a 45% chance that your partner has a single A too, a 30% chance the your partner has no A at all, and only a 25% chance that they have 2 or 3 A.

It seems to me that it's a very bad idea for both players to apply this strategy, as the chance of wasting your exchange of card is quite high (While a single player of the team applying the strategy is definitely very positive).

[Setsuna Jr]

What you have presented is too vague to give a proper answer.

Can you link the report?

Hi there, what is vague? I can help clear it. I do not want to show private information since there are three more people in the game, I need their permission as well.

[Setsuna Jr]

but I think, once people know these strategy, it is very easy to figure out themselves.

Is it though? This strategy is good but not "fully optimal", so you have no guaranty that your partner will stop at the same level of thinking.

I don't know Tichu past the basic rules, but the most common situation statistically is that both of you have a single A, so if both of you apply this strategy, you just exchange A and lose on the opportunity to improve your hands. Indeed, if you have a single A, there is a 40% chance that your partner has a single A too, a 35% chance the your partner has no A at all, and only a 25% chance that they have 2 or 3 A.

It seems to me that it's a very bad idea for both players to apply this strategy, as the chance of wasting your exchange of card is quite high (While a single player of the team applying the strategy is definitely very positive).

IMHO, It doesn't matter if it is fully optimal. If one brings up a not fully optimal strategy, he is not less guilty of cheating than bringing up a fully optimal one, right? This strategy may be bad, but point is, it is a convention, or lets assume so. I did some research online, found that bridge allows conventions. Why is it considered cheating by bringing up a public convention on BGA?

[rutra1992]

How about games that base on this kind of strategy? Would being a good bridge player (which means you know hidden information conveyed by bidding in particular way, according to chosen system) be considered cheating on BGA? If not this case shouldn't be considered as well.

[N_Faker]

What you have presented is too vague to give a proper answer.

Can you link the report?

Hi there, what is vague? I can help clear it. I do not want to show private information since there are three more people in the game, I need their permission as well.

You could clear it by showing what the moderator said. For now this is nothing but heresay.

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Digging a little, I can confirm that OP's account of his moderation is accurate. And I agree that this moderation makes no sense.