One more post complaining about the "R"NG

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V for souVlaki
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Joined: 18 February 2021, 17:19

One more post complaining about the "R"NG

Post by V for souVlaki »

Hey hey, how's it going?

I have been playing Catan for more than a decade now, both in person but also online in Catan Universe, colonist.io, and recently here in boardgame arena. Combine my experience having played and watched thousands of Catan games with my general understanding of statistics, I have a good general idea of how the numbers usually (should) roll. Also, I am a pretty strong Catan player, participating in tournamets, private discord groups, and watching Catan streams almost daily.

Although I was able to easily climb the ladder in the other platforms, boardgame arena has been a struggle. Besides the common leavers/afk/people that don't know or don't want to use the chat, I have seen the most wierd dice behaviour ever, and this happens in almost every game.

The most common scenario is for one number to roll way too much early and one player to get too far of an advantage, while rolling 7s to slow them down is out of the picture.
It's quite often where my 6s or 8s will be outperformed by 3s. Or that I am on 4-5-6-8 only to be destroyed by 9s that rolled early more than all the rest combined. In the last 2 of the 3 games I had heavily invested in one good number (6 and 9) and they ended up rolling insanely low compared to the rest. (I consider 5-6-8-9 the good-rolling numbers). Although I did win by playing very efficiently and swinging the table to my favor, and having very lucky rolls and VP pulls, the final result was very frustrating.

Now, the last game I just played I had a very strong initial setup and I was on 4-6-8-9-10.
The player with the 2nd best setup ended up winning 10-4-4-2, we never stood a chance at all. Got all his numbers rolling and of course mostly the 5, almost no 7s, didn't lose any cards, he was 4:1 his good resources to build (almost) useless roads because he could easily afford it.
By the time the other numbers started rolling he already had a city and he could outporduce us even if we would get our rolls.

Anyway, I am trying to observe as much as I can and minimise cognitive bias as much as possible, but I am constantly getting screwed over in my games and this is something I am not encountering to this extent in any other platform, or real life.

I also recall a game where 2 rolled five times in 6-7 throws. I don't really think this is trully "random" number generator, I believe it usually gets stuck to certain numbers, although I have no idea why/how.

Nothing will change but at least I got it off my chest. Back to grinding where I will have to come up with even more creative strategies to outperform "bad luck" in most of my games.
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thoun
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Joined: 10 December 2020, 22:25

Re: One more post complaining about the "R"NG

Post by thoun »

You can't makedistribution statistics on 6-7 rolls. Note at least a hundred following rolls, check the distribution, and come back if you have a real proof. Cognitive bias are stronger than we think they are :twisted:
BusterVA
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Joined: 29 March 2019, 17:30

Re: One more post complaining about the "R"NG

Post by BusterVA »

thoun wrote: 24 January 2024, 19:45 You can't makedistribution statistics on 6-7 rolls. Note at least a hundred following rolls, check the distribution, and come back if you have a real proof. Cognitive bias are stronger than we think they are :twisted:
I think you missed their point entirely. They are not basing this on 6-7 rolls, that was just a singular example. They are basing their opinions on years of playing this game in real life and on many other platforms and pointing out how the dice behavior is unlike any other.

I have played nearly 1000 games of catan so far and I can say that the vast majority of those games - like maybe 900 of them, I see really weird statistically anomalies where certain numbers get rolled a LOT. Like well beyond what is statistically realistic. I am confident there is an error somewhere in the programming for the random number generator. Perhaps the seed value is the issue, or some other error. I don't know, but something is just "off" and does not feel natural at all.
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desertman
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Joined: 06 April 2023, 14:53

Re: One more post complaining about the "R"NG

Post by desertman »

V for souVlaki wrote: 24 January 2024, 19:41... Besides the common leavers/afk/people that don't know or don't want to use the chat, I have seen the most weird dice behaviour ever, and this happens in almost every game ...
It sounds as if you find it “weird" not to use the chat. Why?
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Jellby
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Joined: 31 December 2013, 12:22

Re: One more post complaining about the "R"NG

Post by Jellby »

Individual games are always statistically very unlikely. That's why you need statistics. Every lottery number is statistically very unlikely to be the winner, yet it's 100% sure that one statistically very unlikely number will be the winner.
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V for souVlaki
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Joined: 18 February 2021, 17:19

Re: One more post complaining about the "R"NG

Post by V for souVlaki »

Just had one more interesting game (#467092688) where I ended up winning by flying under the radar and pulling 4 VPs, but I was only on numbers 5-6-8-9 and I had an insanely slow start due to other numbers dominating the board. At some point I was 4:1 my ore (only on number 5 to finally get one wheat instead of waiting for 8 or 9 to roll :cry: )
Imagine playing the city strategy on 5-6-8-9 numbers and ending up 3rd in production. :?

I was also desperate to draw knights and control the board/slow down the other players, I ended up drawing 0 knights out of 6 dev cards. :evil:

11 was the second most rolled number after 5 (we all had production on 5) and the person being on 11 would have an easy win if it wasn't for his/her inefficient play and my late-game monopoly that sucked all the wheat needed to transform all these back-to-back 11s into the final points needed.

Anyway, 3/4 of my games, if not more, are heavily one-sided early due to dice rolling only on certain numbers, and makes things much more difficult because 1-2 players get too much of an advantage, too early.
I still end up winning most of the time with strategy, table-talk, and efficient playing, but if I would play against better opponents this would be more of a lottery and less of a (strategy) game.

Jellby has a good point about individual games. Still, my experience in BGA is much different than any other platform and real life, when I see sometimes (way more often than it should) of numbers like 2,3,11,12 rolling back-to-back often, I do get suspicious.

Btw, I always spend time after each game checking the dice statistics and other metrics, as well as analysing the board and trying to figure out what I could have done better.
Hopefully I will get to represent my country in the Catan World Championship one day!
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V for souVlaki
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Joined: 18 February 2021, 17:19

Re: One more post complaining about the "R"NG

Post by V for souVlaki »

desertman wrote: 25 January 2024, 03:52
V for souVlaki wrote: 24 January 2024, 19:41... Besides the common leavers/afk/people that don't know or don't want to use the chat, I have seen the most weird dice behaviour ever, and this happens in almost every game ...
It sounds as if you find it “weird" not to use the chat. Why?
I was writing about the factors that contribute towards not climbing up the ladder so easily, and one of them is the lack of communication.
Catan is a very social game where being able to divert your opponent's attention from your game towards your opponents' success can make a HUGE difference in your winrate. The robber is the most powerfull piece of the game and if utilised properly, it can make or break you. (exceptions apply)

Here in BGA most of the players don't use the chat (or don't speak English) so I can't manipulate them, or sometimes an opponent is truly ahead and I can't point it out so they can block a crucial sport early, before this opponent reaches the point of no return.
(This was also the case when we lost 10-4-4-2 and at some point early on the leader was not blocked at all. Few rolls later he built his cities/ports/expansions and was unstoppable)

It has nothing to do with the constantly weird behaviour of the dice, just the overall experience.
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ran8
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Joined: 21 November 2023, 02:49

Re: One more post complaining about the "R"NG

Post by ran8 »

Isn't there an option to have the numbers generated by drawing cards from a deck with distribution equal to number of pips? I just had a game were the first rolls were 2 2 6 7 6 7 6 6.
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