Make it easier to tell who the first player is, and player order?

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Cos-
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Make it easier to tell who the first player is, and player order?

Post by Cos- »

[ Because the forum search here is horrible, I can't find out if we've already had a discussion about this. Both "first" and "player" are considered "too common" so I can't even try to look for posts that have the phrase "first player" in their titles, because it refuses to include either of those words in a search. Frustrating. ]

In some games, it matters a lot who the first player was, because when some player reaches some game-ending condition, every player will get their final turn. But it's often really hard to tell!

It seems to me that this has been left up to the designers of the individual games to come up with some way to indicate, and they each do it differently. Games often place an indicator somewhere on one of the player blocks on the top right, but it's often subtle and hard to pick apart from the various other icons there, unless you know for sure what to look for - which doesn't work well when you play a lot of different games. Some games seem not to give you an indicator at all, while some do it only when it is the final round, even though you may want to know in earlier rounds in order to plan ahead.

Is there some BGA-wide way to tell, in any game, what the turn order is? Other than clicking endlessly on the game log to find the start. If there is some more practical way of doing it, how?

And if there isn't, is there already a feature request asking to add this? We clearly cannot trust the coders of the individual games to do all do it well, which is understandable - they have a lot of other things to deal with, and this can seem minor to them. Also, if they mostly just test out that one game, they're probably familiar enough with their subtle indicator to not realize how hard it is for other people to figure it out.
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Kayvon
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Re: Make it easier to tell who the first player is, and player order?

Post by Kayvon »

Cos- wrote: 09 February 2025, 16:03It seems to me that this has been left up to the designers of the individual games to come up with some way to indicate, and they each do it differently.
Astute observation. This is indeed game-dependent.
Is there some BGA-wide way to tell, in any game, what the turn order is?
No, for one very simple reason: BGA itself doesn't know. The game itself makes this determination and there's no standardized way for BGA to know what the game decided. Sure, BGA usually offers a suggested player order, but the game is free to do whatever it wants. For various, legitimate reasons, games often deviate from the BGA-provided player order.
We clearly cannot trust the coders of the individual games to do all do it well
Since this needs to be implemented separately for each individual game, you kind of answered your own question.
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Cos-
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Re: Make it easier to tell who the first player is, and player order?

Post by Cos- »

Couldn't BGA add a standardized UI element for this, make it easy for each game to hook into it, and publish a rule requiring that games that have a turn order must use that feature? That way there would be one consistent way to see this info across most games for which it's relevant.
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Kayvon
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Re: Make it easier to tell who the first player is, and player order?

Post by Kayvon »

Let's talk about what would be involved...

1. Couldn't BGA add a standardized UI element for this

Yes. Of course, it won't work by itself, which is why you also suggested...

2. make it easy for each game to hook into it

That's also possible, but it represents some work for the BGA guys. My guess is they have much bigger fish to fry. Still, it's certainly possible.

3. publish a rule requiring that games that have a turn order must use that feature

Not so much. There are, what, hundreds of BGA games? Almost entirely maintained by volunteers, when they're maintained at all. Each individual game would need to be updated to use the new feature and that's just not feasible.

At best, BGA could implement 1 & 2, then make it optional for new developers to integrate that into their games. That would absolutely work, but it won't really solve the issue of existing games that you're worried about.
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Jellby
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Re: Make it easier to tell who the first player is, and player order?

Post by Jellby »

I'd say that if you know a game well enough to care about how turn order affects the game end (and please note there are games with no fixed turn order, as it changes from round to round in various manners), you probably know (or can easily find) where and how the turn order is displayed (first player marker, or whatever).
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Cos-
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Re: Make it easier to tell who the first player is, and player order?

Post by Cos- »

Kayvon wrote: 09 February 2025, 18:55 That would absolutely work, but it won't really solve the issue of existing games that you're worried about.
Sure it would! Not every game would adopt it, but within a couple of years a majority of actively maintained games would. We'd be a lot better off then. "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good"; the fact that there would be some stragglers that don't do it doesn't mean it wouldn't be a big improvement.
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Cos-
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Re: Make it easier to tell who the first player is, and player order?

Post by Cos- »

Jellby wrote: 09 February 2025, 18:58 I'd say that if you know a game well enough to care about how turn order affects the game end (and please note there are games with no fixed turn order, as it changes from round to round in various manners), you probably know (or can easily find) where and how the turn order is displayed (first player marker, or whatever).
You would say that, but you would be wrong.

1. I've had a lot of trouble with this even in games I've played many times. Sometimes I even figured it out, then forgot because I didn't play that game for a couple of months, and then again had a lot of trouble finding it.

2.Some games don't give any indication at all until the final round, so even if you do know how they do it, there's just nothing for you.

3. Even if neither of the above points were true, why do we want to make things harder for new people or people trying new games? Don't we want BGA to be welcoming and encourage people to try new games?

So no, it's not the case that you probably know, or can easily find. It is for a few games that make it clearer, but even in those it's easy not to notice.

BTW, for games where the turn order changes from round to round, it's even _more_ important to make this easy to see, in some standard way. Some of the games I play where turn order changes do a better job than others - for example, I've gotten used to the way _Photosynthesis_ does it, though it was pretty easy to miss for several games. In other games, it's done poorly - for example on _Evolution_ as far as I can tell you just have to scroll back in the excessively-long game log, which is frustrating and time consuming.

Some games don't really have a meaningful concept of turn order that matters in this way, so any such feature would have to be optional, but it could still be a standard BGA tells games to use when it's relevant for the game.
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Kayvon
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Re: Make it easier to tell who the first player is, and player order?

Post by Kayvon »

Cos- wrote: 09 February 2025, 19:02
Kayvon wrote: 09 February 2025, 18:55 That would absolutely work, but it won't really solve the issue of existing games that you're worried about.
Sure it would! Not every game would adopt it, but within a couple of years a majority of actively maintained games would. We'd be a lot better off then. "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good"; the fact that there would be some stragglers that don't do it doesn't mean it wouldn't be a big improvement.
Oh, I agree it would be a big improvement. If BGA has the resources to do it, I'm all for it. I would use it in the games I develop.

The reality is that budgets are fixed and time is limited. It's more likely BGA will address bigger issue. That being said, I'd still encourage you to file an official suggestion and see if enough users vote for it to rise to BGA's attention.
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Cos-
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Re: Make it easier to tell who the first player is, and player order?

Post by Cos- »

Okay, I filed a feature request: https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=157336
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