Always lose - any tips on how to win?

[A_dot_A]

I always get 4th place in this game, let alone losing, and I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. Any tips on how to win?

[FrankJones]

I always get 4th place in this game, let alone losing, and I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. Any tips on how to win?

This is an immensely frustrating game with a very high luck factor.

Among the annoying things that happen to me CONSTANTLY:

1) First hand, almost every game, one or more players passes Ace king ace and no small heart, and the recipient shoots the moon with no effort. This is asinine, especially when that pass is made by a veteran player. I don't understand. Nobody ever shoots the moon on MY pass, but as a result, I Surrender a low heart while keeping a dangerous high card, and I get rocked. It's frustrating.

2) So, I try to moon, but then that same player passes me a small heart, and I get rocked because now I have a hand full of high cards and the 2 of hearts. Oh well. gg.

3) I constantly get passed the Q of spades when I am short on spades. I keep thinking, "If I only have 1 spade, the others should have length in spades. Why are people passing the Q if they have length in the suit?"

4) I get rocked in almost every no pass as I watch helplessly while my hand of high cards takes point after point.

5) People indiscriminately dump the Q on me even when there is plenty of safety to hold it and try to give it to the leader.

6) I just go on LONG runs of terrible hands, lacking the "control" cards (ace or maybe king) needed to take a trick to stop a moon, or to take a trick and change the suit being played; and, where I lack the "escape cards" needed to guarantee ducking a crucial trick (2 of clubs, 2 of hearts, 2 of diamonds, etc). The number of times I have been ruined by taking a catastrophic trick with a 4 or even a 3 is astounding. If I play my lowest card that I was dealt and I still eat the Queen, what else was I supposed to do?

I was as high as 270 Elo, I think, and as low as 120. I fluctuate, often helplessly, but sometimes because of poor play on my part. The game moves at a blistering pace, and I find it very difficult to remember the cards played. The lack of a 4-color deck option makes the spades look like clubs, and the diamonds look like hearts.

Also, the fact that very few players are rated above 200 makes it very difficult to gain ELo. Once you get to the high 200s, most games will be against players rated in the 100s or low 200s, and any 4th place finish is a complete ELo disaster. And a win barely gains anything.

I am a strong Spades player, but I can barely make any headway in hearts. The game just gets me frustrated, and it makes people agitated in the chat more so than any other game. (Spades would be a close 2nd in terms of agitation in the in-game chat).

[Strode]

I always get 4th place in this game, let alone losing, and I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. Any tips on how to win?

The above poster was mostly complaining about his own woes. So..

1. It's good to be all out of a suit. (Which doesn't mean you should pass all your dealt spades, lol)

2. Make sacrifices - be ready to take a heart or two to avoid worse stuff later on.

3. Try to save some good "lead" cards for late (i.e., low cards in suits that are still out there).

3a. But don't dump all your high cards until you're sure no one else can shoot

4. Track cards as best you can. At the very least, if you've seen two full tricks of one suit, there's a good chance someone is out and can throw down a bad card (the distribution would have to be exactly 3-3-3-4 for it not to be so). Or course, if there have been three full tricks of any single suit, then there's only one card left in it.

5. If you're trying to the moon, then the above doesn't apply, which is what makes the game interesting.

There's more to it, but I think that's a start.

[FrankJones]

I was not "complaining about my own woes." Those are misfortunes that happen to everyone.

1. Yes, it is good to be out of a suit. But sometimes, the suit you pass cards from will be passed right back to you.

2. Yes, this is a well-known concept. I have no concern about taking a few hearts to avoid a worse situation later. I am not going o play my precious 3 of hearts and leave the K as my only heart.

3. Again, obvious. Many hands do not have a low "escape" card to use.

3a. Of course. With a suit like A 65432 of diamond, there is no reason to dump the ace. But with Axx or Ax, it can be very dangerous to hold the ace on an obviously safe trick. Of course as you noted, dumping it can result in someone else mooning. I try to \hope other players protected their pass. I cannot personally be responsible for stopping every moon attempt.

4. Tracking cards is crucial. I know I would do a lot better in turn-based, but I cannot stomach the idea of playing turn-based hearts. Keeping track of one key suit is usually enough. In my carelessness, I have sometimes led the 13th card of a suit because I didn't notice that one had been discarded on a trick I was not paying attention to. My fault, obviously, and I am always annoyed at myself when it happens.

5. Knowing when to moon is not easy. Also, I hate the games going to 75 instead of 100. I was always taught 100, and I think that is consistent with traditional rules, though it's difficult to know for sure in a very old public-domain game. The lower the end-game target, the more luck and variance involved. The best player will usually win in a game to 500, but in a game to 50, anything can happen in the short term.

With over 2 million games played, NOBODY is rated higher than 453. only 8 players are above 400, and only 257 (likely out of several tens of thousands) are even above 300. That indicates a VERY high ratio of luck to skill. Playing to 50 or 75 points heavily exacerbates that issue.

[FrankJones]

The above poster was mostly complaining about his own woes. So..

I apologize if my post sounded whiny.

As I noted, I'm sure everyone has experienced the frustrating occurrences I described. Of course, the stronger players will mitigate those occurrences better than weaker players.

I am a strong spades player and a strong Bridge player. Bridge is a far more complex game than Hearts. I understand the mechanics of card games. And I believe that in Hearts games to 100, I would do well. The games to 75 make for a rushed approach that fundamentally changes the strategy in a way that I dislike. I wish more people had the attention span to be willing to play to 100 instead of 75. But when I open a table with the target set to 100, it rarely ever starts.

And I wish the lousy Elo system didn't encourage people to dump points on the people in 3rd and 4th place, although apparently, I am in the minority in having that opinion.

[FrankJones]

I always get 4th place in this game, let alone losing, and I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. Any tips on how to win?

I am willing to take some time to review a couple of your games and give you some specific feedback on specific plays.

If you're interested, please give me the game link to one or two games in which you felt as though you had a chance to win but did not.

[Strode]

The above poster was mostly complaining about his own woes. So..

I apologize if my post sounded whiny.

And I'm sorry if I sounded overly critical. I just fear it may have come across as "why bother? people here don't know how to play properly anyway".

It's hard to answer the OP without knowing exactly how much of a beginner they are.

[FrankJones]

And I'm sorry if I sounded overly critical. I just fear it may have come across as "why bother? people here don't know how to play properly

No worries

Your phrasing was polite and reasonable, and you were correct in that I didn't exactly phrase useful things in a helpful way. (Which is unlike me; I enjoy helping players and coaching strategy.)

TO the OP, as I said, I'll review a couple of your games. I have time to spare, and I enjoy helping if I can.

One thing I'll add is: [I ended up adding a few more things. ]

It's almost certainly a lot more difficult to moon than I think it is. I go for it a LOT, and usually it fails, even when I think it cannot possibly fail. I would probably still be rated in the high 200s if I didn't try too many silly moon attempts

Weird stuff, such as, I'll have a singleton Ace of hearts, high cards and control in clubs and diamonds, and Axx in spades. All I need to do is survive the first 2 spade tricks, but one of two things might happen:

1) Someone plays a heart on the second spade trick after I have played my low spade. Now someone else has a point, and I have ace of spades, ace of hearts, and a bunch of high clubs and diamonds. Minus 25 for me.

2) Or, someone has Qx spade, and on the second spade, I play low, ready to TRAM (The Rest Are Mine), and the person with the Q has to eat the spade trick and the Queen. Minus 13 for me.


I think going moon requires having strong control of all 3 side suits and no low heart.

Or, one of those rare hands where you have AKQxxx heart and can take the Q spade. And even then, sometimes a diamond lead comes, it's the first diamond, so you play lwo to preserve your high cards, and someone is void and a heart falls on someone else. Etc. So many things can go wrong when people can pass 3 cards, and other opponents are making weird or bad passes.


Of course, sometimes even when I have AKQxxx heart, someone has Jxxx and I fail.
I have failed with AKQJ9x hearts because someone had Txxxx.

Strategy:

Try passing away 2 dangerous cards and a small heart, and see how that goes. (Be ready to take that heart trick if that player is dumping low cards, then takes a heart and leads the small heart you passed. It might be that player's only heart, and only losing card.)

(Keep in mind, "Small heart" means any heart you can reasonably control. If I have KQ2 of hearts, I can pass the Q heart and call it a "small heart" because if that player tries to moon, I'll eventually take his or her Q heart with my King. )

If you have the Q spade and less than 4 total spades, pass it. Even with Qxxx spades, you are in a surprising amount of danger if you do not get passed a 5th spade to protect. People WILL lead spades, they'll unload the ace and king as final card of the trick, and you'll eat the queen on the 4th round of spades (and probably eat some hearts too).

I have had to eat the Queen with SIX spades to the Queen, because ONE opponent also had 6. we ended up leading spades back and forth, but I ended up takin the Queen on the 6th spade trick.

Shrug off those frustrating occurrences that you have little control over.

I hope that all helps

[castledrawbridge]

I found this discussion interesting...

I have often achieved 300+ ELO is this game and occasionally dropped 150 ELO in 4-5 games while keeping good reputation... just the luck of it.

It was previously said "2. Yes, [sacrifice] is a well-known concept. I have no concern about taking a few hearts to avoid a worse situation later. I am not going to play my precious 3 of hearts and leave the K as my only heart." ... in the heart suit I would have no problem sluffing the 3 keeping the king and taking 4 hearts later. Especially since the odds the queen holder doesn't have a heart is very unlikly. That is the whole point of sacrificing with a bit of gambling/guessing. By this comment alone it seems FrankJones you are willing to sacrifice but only in a controlled setting.

Previously as well... "I constantly get passed the Q of spades when I am short on spades. I keep thinking, "If I only have 1 spade, the others should have length in spades. Why are people passing the Q if they have length in the suit?"... this is because either they are worried and afraid of the queen OR they are deep in spades and are going to make you taker her. Deep spades, pass the queen is nearly always successful in avoiding her. But there is the weird hand that I pass the Queen with the intention of taking her back for a run but with the option of avoiding if I need to. But that should be a different discussion. How do you protect? It is a bit of luck but try to void a suit early or even in your pass or pass high hearts or high cards in the suit you don't have low cards in to balance the final points. But its a gamble to pass high cards... if you are passed the queen you passed well if you aren't passed the queen then sluff your spade early and break hearts as soon as you can to help prevent the run. It can still be competitive if you take the queen and they are taking the rest of the points. Practice not passing spades expecting others are going to pass you those tough cards.

To a beginner.... this is a game about controlling the queen with your heart
1. To start don't pass spades unless you have to and pass the queen right if you have her. You want the protection. Be prepared to hold spades. Say I have spades K89 this is risky and there is no problem passing the K, but if I receive the queen 1) another player knows 2) 3 leads of a spade mean I likely take her and the player in the know could force it. It might be better to pass and void another suit. If you keep the K and they pass you the A, this now means at worst you have 4 spades and everyone else has 3 spades, the moment the player to your left leads a spade you have a big advantage in either safely taking the trick moving on or playing under the queen. But if you take the trick with your high card suddenly the odds are very different... 9 spades left and you hold 3 of them, not to mention you have control of the lead.

2. Don't be scared of the queen. I can't tell you how many games I've played where people just dump her the first moment they can. When you "don't" pass the queen this gives you unique knowledge they other players don't have. When you pass the queen half of the players know where she is. If you have the queen and a little protection. Its okay to make it known. The other players are likely worried about her and you coming out strong is okay because it puts you in more control and they keep cards to protect against the run. Note: passing her right allows you a lot of flexibility in playing the king and ace. Not to mention to communicate to others that the player to your right has it...

3. Passing a mid range to low heart nearly always prevents a run even if you can't cover, though ideally you can. Additionally early breaking of hearts changes the play and is effective in preventing a run. You are likely to be passed a heart and if not you have more control in the other suits. Players who don't play carefully will give runs away because they are "selfish" in that they only care about what they passed. In truth we care about what everyone passed. Every hand is a winner and a loser. BUT you can pass a low heart in hopes you sluff your high heart on them, which likely prevents the run. I recognize there is a gamble in it but mathematical stats say that it works most of the time. So many options and combinations...

4. You don't need to track every card.... but pay attention to royalty and the lowest cards in each suit. You want to know if you have the highest, lowest or last cards of a suit. Therefore follow the rules previously mentioned about counting suits based on no sluff tricks in that suit. This also means that mid-range cards are you most dangerous cards. if you have a 6 of diamonds and you haven't seen lower it is a dangerous card later in the game. I have unfortunately taken the queen when I erroneously played a suit that only I had cards in. On the flip side you can use it to your advantage to stop runs due to 2 players wanting to stop the run as well and suddenly a 6 of clubs becomes your stopper card.

This game is so fun and there are so many combinations and ways to play it. What I have shared above has worked well for me... plus there's a lot more... but find out what works for you. Sometimes I have lost a game because I refuse to keep dropping the queen on one player. But I've learned you can't expect that from others... BUT play with kindness and you will find that "good" players return it back to you. You can't expect others will know your signals either. Me and another player were 3rd and 4th by a huge margin so I passed the queen to them with 2 other spades and played the passed to me ace of spades mid trick, but because of the lack of trust I had the queen dumped immediately on me. There was very little I could do to say hey I am going to give you an opening on the other players, instead I was punished for passing. So on BGA you have to be defensive in your play until you know the players you are playing with. Sometimes its okay to settle for second/third but try to make that rare even though it is still nicer on the ELO.

[FrankJones]

It was previously said "2. Yes, [sacrifice] is a well-known concept. I have no concern about taking a few hearts to avoid a worse situation later. I am not going to play my precious 3 of hearts and leave the K as my only heart." ... in the heart suit I would have no problem sluffing the 3 keeping the king and taking 4 hearts later. Especially since the odds the queen holder doesn't have a heart is very unlikly. That is the whole point of sacrificing with a bit of gambling/guessing. By this comment alone it seems FrankJones you are willing to sacrifice but only in a controlled setting.

What I meant was, if I have K and 3 of hearts, and it's obvious that playing the 3 will result in my K taking the next trick and the rest (Because I have no safe escape card), whereas the K now followed the 3 will get me off lead and guarantee that I take no more than those 4 hearts, I'll do it.