Game : https://boardgamearena.com/17/cardia?table=831228653
Deck 2
We encountered a funny situation in this game today, where my 2 Kinesis Mage lost to my opponent's 3 Envoy
Opponent had a 15 Mechanical Djinn with a ongoing token on it, meaning that the signet on 3 Envoy becomes a valid condition for the "you win the game" effect
However, by losing with 2 Kinesis Mage, i activated its ability and i moved the ongoing token from my 8 Aristocrat to my own 15 Mechanical Djinn, also becoming a valid condition for the "you win the game effect" due to the next encounter also being a win fo me with my 16 Successor.
Even before playing my 2 Kinesis Mage i was wondering what would happen in this situation (and if the game would continue or not)
It turns out i won the game and the end result was a 2-1 for me.
So i decided to check the rulebook, and there are only a few things that may explain why it turned as a 2-1 and not a 2-2 (+ game ending in a "real" tie then with any player winning 2 games)
"We recommend you play until one
player has won 2 games (“best of
three”).
This likely explains why the game would have ended no matter what
Only the player whose card loses the current encounter immediately
activates the ability of the losing card.
You must resolve the activated ability to the fullest extent possible
and including any consequences for other cards. To resolve an ability,
do what the text on the card says
This likely implies that activated abilities AND their consequences take priority over checking the board state , explaining why the game never checks the board state (and therefore the winning condition of my opponent) before all abilities AND their consequences have been checked. Meaning that it checked my consequences first before anything else on the board. (as me moving my ongoing ability token from 8 to 15 was a consequence of the ability and therefore part of it? (and the same would have applied if i had made the card next to 15 win afterwards as a consequence to one of my activated abilities?))
I feel that it makes sense i won based on the wording of the rulebook and the word "immediately" (which may imply priority), but even before playing my 2 Kinesis Mage i was wondering what would happen in this situation lol
And while talking with my opponent he had a point, technically the winning signet was placed at the same time as my ability being triggered, which is probably what confused us lol (we expected the game to go 2-2 instead of 2-1 i feel lol)
The rule also says "The ongoing ability is in effect
from now on.", which may imply including during ability activation (with that logic it should have been 2-2 and the game ending in a "real" tie (without continuing due to a player reaching 2? But maybe it's in effect but not "immediately" checking the board changes over abilities that have to "immediately resolve their effect AND all consequences" (and the fact my 15 Mechanical Djinn becoming valid is a direct consequence of my card losing (while my opponent's 15 didn't have any losing card that justify to check for its winning condition yet), it explains why i won? ))
I feel like the fact the rulebook says "must resolve / including the consequences" explains why the game resolves my "win the game" ability first, and therefore it makes sense that the game ended the way it did, but the rulebook is unclear about whether or not it takes priority over ongoing abilities that were previously activated, but i feel the lack of "check the boardstate at any time for ongoing abilities" lines in the rulebook explain why i won
Clarification is a bit needed i feel, in my opinion and after reading the rulebook and how it insists so much on what to IMMEDIATELY activate or not, i feel it makes sense that it resolved the way it did (it simply wasn't precisely worded for this specific situation), but one could argue the ongoing tokens being in effect "from now on" shouldn't simply be cancelled during the time abilities AND their consequences resolve immediately , meaning in this case it would be a tie and the game would continue for another round because we both had the "you win the game" status at the same time (the "immediately" aspect would simply make it so that abilities resolution come before checking the board state (making it impossible for my opponent to have won instead "just because they technically placed their signet on their 3 Envoy before my 2 ability" , the board state cannot be checked before my 2 ability and its consequences resolve (which is why the rulebook insists so much on the word "IMMEDIATELY", this is something that is pretty clear in the rulebook ))
But in any case i wanted to share this special situation , which i feel should definitely lead to a clarification in an updated rulebook, with an updated "detailed example of a round" section
(and it will likely result on whether or not the designer want to nerf the effect of losing card abilities or not )
EDIT:
there is a "DECK II CLARIFICATION" section that states this for 2 Kinesis Mage:
"Kinesis maGe: You must take all modifiers and ongoing tokens from one
of your cards. Then place all of them onto one other of your played
cards (you may place them on the Kinesis maGe himself). You may not split them
up. If you place an ongoing token onto a card with an ongoing ability that is
currently not active, it is activated immediately."
Meaning my 15 Mechanical Djinn does indeed triggers immediately (and therefore before any other board check), making me the definitive winner according to the rulebook
But i still feel that the rulebook should clarify that "immediately" also means "before any other board checks from other cards" or something like that, because that still doesn't solve the issue of other ongoing abilities that are still active at the same time as well.
But i'll still leave this topic on because it's still a very interesting situation that i'm pretty sure other players will have questions about
Deck 2
We encountered a funny situation in this game today, where my 2 Kinesis Mage lost to my opponent's 3 Envoy
Opponent had a 15 Mechanical Djinn with a ongoing token on it, meaning that the signet on 3 Envoy becomes a valid condition for the "you win the game" effect
However, by losing with 2 Kinesis Mage, i activated its ability and i moved the ongoing token from my 8 Aristocrat to my own 15 Mechanical Djinn, also becoming a valid condition for the "you win the game effect" due to the next encounter also being a win fo me with my 16 Successor.
Even before playing my 2 Kinesis Mage i was wondering what would happen in this situation (and if the game would continue or not)
It turns out i won the game and the end result was a 2-1 for me.
So i decided to check the rulebook, and there are only a few things that may explain why it turned as a 2-1 and not a 2-2 (+ game ending in a "real" tie then with any player winning 2 games)
"We recommend you play until one
player has won 2 games (“best of
three”).
This likely explains why the game would have ended no matter what
Only the player whose card loses the current encounter immediately
activates the ability of the losing card.
You must resolve the activated ability to the fullest extent possible
and including any consequences for other cards. To resolve an ability,
do what the text on the card says
This likely implies that activated abilities AND their consequences take priority over checking the board state , explaining why the game never checks the board state (and therefore the winning condition of my opponent) before all abilities AND their consequences have been checked. Meaning that it checked my consequences first before anything else on the board. (as me moving my ongoing ability token from 8 to 15 was a consequence of the ability and therefore part of it? (and the same would have applied if i had made the card next to 15 win afterwards as a consequence to one of my activated abilities?))
I feel that it makes sense i won based on the wording of the rulebook and the word "immediately" (which may imply priority), but even before playing my 2 Kinesis Mage i was wondering what would happen in this situation lol
And while talking with my opponent he had a point, technically the winning signet was placed at the same time as my ability being triggered, which is probably what confused us lol (we expected the game to go 2-2 instead of 2-1 i feel lol)
The rule also says "The ongoing ability is in effect
from now on.", which may imply including during ability activation (with that logic it should have been 2-2 and the game ending in a "real" tie (without continuing due to a player reaching 2? But maybe it's in effect but not "immediately" checking the board changes over abilities that have to "immediately resolve their effect AND all consequences" (and the fact my 15 Mechanical Djinn becoming valid is a direct consequence of my card losing (while my opponent's 15 didn't have any losing card that justify to check for its winning condition yet), it explains why i won? ))
I feel like the fact the rulebook says "must resolve / including the consequences" explains why the game resolves my "win the game" ability first, and therefore it makes sense that the game ended the way it did, but the rulebook is unclear about whether or not it takes priority over ongoing abilities that were previously activated, but i feel the lack of "check the boardstate at any time for ongoing abilities" lines in the rulebook explain why i won
Clarification is a bit needed i feel, in my opinion and after reading the rulebook and how it insists so much on what to IMMEDIATELY activate or not, i feel it makes sense that it resolved the way it did (it simply wasn't precisely worded for this specific situation), but one could argue the ongoing tokens being in effect "from now on" shouldn't simply be cancelled during the time abilities AND their consequences resolve immediately , meaning in this case it would be a tie and the game would continue for another round because we both had the "you win the game" status at the same time (the "immediately" aspect would simply make it so that abilities resolution come before checking the board state (making it impossible for my opponent to have won instead "just because they technically placed their signet on their 3 Envoy before my 2 ability" , the board state cannot be checked before my 2 ability and its consequences resolve (which is why the rulebook insists so much on the word "IMMEDIATELY", this is something that is pretty clear in the rulebook ))
But in any case i wanted to share this special situation , which i feel should definitely lead to a clarification in an updated rulebook, with an updated "detailed example of a round" section
(and it will likely result on whether or not the designer want to nerf the effect of losing card abilities or not )EDIT:
there is a "DECK II CLARIFICATION" section that states this for 2 Kinesis Mage:
"Kinesis maGe: You must take all modifiers and ongoing tokens from one
of your cards. Then place all of them onto one other of your played
cards (you may place them on the Kinesis maGe himself). You may not split them
up. If you place an ongoing token onto a card with an ongoing ability that is
currently not active, it is activated immediately."
Meaning my 15 Mechanical Djinn does indeed triggers immediately (and therefore before any other board check), making me the definitive winner according to the rulebook
But i still feel that the rulebook should clarify that "immediately" also means "before any other board checks from other cards" or something like that, because that still doesn't solve the issue of other ongoing abilities that are still active at the same time as well.
But i'll still leave this topic on because it's still a very interesting situation that i'm pretty sure other players will have questions about
