self-layered patch finesse?

[Sammy McSam]

First move of the game hypothetical clue:
loafbit to Juicy_Lemon 02: this card is a 2

What should _mg6maciej_ consider?

[spoiler]
2m is clued, if I do nothing:
everyone knows it must be a finesse and so 1m is promised somewhere
Juicy will play their finesse position because they do not see a playable 1 (or 54k/53k) in the next two hands that could make their marked 2 playable.
A) next round Juicy will bomb 2m as 2r
-> i) so I should try to play 1m now
-> ii) so I should clue 3 on 3m now so that Juicy knows they need to play 12m
B) ViCtuM knows 1r does not connect to 2m and ViCtuM must now find 1m -> plays 2r (which is promised after the unexpected 1r play)
Sammy will not respond because Juicy is still looking for the finessed 1 that connects to their marked 2.
Juicy must play the finessed 1 because ViCtuM did not have a 1 behind the played 2r
ViCtuM stops looking for 1m because it has been played
Juicy plays their now playable 2
-> so I can clue something unrelated or discard

Replay: https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=869973036
[/spoiler]

Bonus hypothetical:
Would responses be different if Juicy's hand were 1r 3r 1m 2m ?

[Blacktango]

Nice one!

[springiest]

i think the correct term for this is a Pestilent Finesse. usually this kind of clue is given from Bluff Seat (by mg6 in this case), and there it would only make r1 & r2 play but nothing more after that. juicy knows their 2 is NOT r2, and they can have any random card in slot2.
the fact that the clue did NOT come from Bluff Seat makes it a Pestilent Patch Finesse, in which case r2 can be on ANYONE's finesse slot (except loafbit obviously) not necessarily victum's! once r2 plays, juicy continues to play slot2 and then find out they have m2. (would be very funny if juicy had `r1 b1 m1 m2` and r2/b2 are both on finesse slot of DIFFERENT players! )

very good clue, and i dont think mg6 needs to respond in any way, because they can see r2 on someone's finesse slot. clueing sammy's m3 is not a bad idea either, but that would very likely stop r2 from playing.

[Sammy McSam]

i think the correct term for this is a Pestilent Finesse.

Interesting, not heard of this before in h-group conventions. Of course since we always use 1-away bluff targets and interpret clues as finesse (truth) until a bluff (lie) is revealed, we have no need for a 'pestilent' concept to disambiguate with bluff before finesse h-group conventions.
For us I think self-layered is more descriptive.

the fact that the clue did NOT come from Bluff Seat

For us this concept leads to an incorrect understanding of bluffs. It is possible to bluff any player from any seat e.g.
Alice clues Emily 3 on 3r
Bob discards
Cathy plays 1r
Donald plays 1y as 2r (bluff is revealed, so no more digging for a layered finesse)
Emily knows they have 3r and everyone knows it was a finesse + bluff.

(would be very funny if juicy had `r1 b1 m1 m2` and r2/b2 are both on finesse slot of DIFFERENT players! )

Love this idea!

[springiest]

imo the r3 clue u described has a very huge risk - what if cathy decides not to play r1 (just marks her 1 as r1 and her finesse slot as r2), but tries to bluff donald's y1 with a clue of her own? the team will become severely desychronized from each other, and it is very difficult to recover from such a game-state. this is a big reason i really like a more strict definition of the Bluff Seat.