About war in Ukraine

[Pushkiin]

I have repeatedly said I do not condone the actions that are going on. But the problem is not the Russian players on this site, the problem is not 'the flag'.

The problem is Putin, the problem is Russian government that follows him, the problem is Russian army that has no other choice than to obey to march to Ukraine, but on top of that perform various heinous war crimes.

BGA made a standpoint not to ban Russian players, and everyone here is constantly asking to go against BGA's policy. If your values are that important, just leave BGA!

Currently, around 80% of Russian population support Putin, statistically the number also reflects on players on BGA, especially considering the lacklustre response from them against the war in this thread. I'm not sure if you noticed but no one is talking about the banning of Russian players. A good starting point would be for BGA to at least acknowledge for the war crimes and the genocide in Ukraine, which they have refused to do. Another, thing that they could do is to create an option to select a white-blue-white flag on BGA, which they have refused to do. We can move from there and discuss other actions, but this should be the minimum that could be done on BGA after 90 days of war.

We are not discussing "values" here as you suggested, but concrete actions on this website that should be implemented to show the solidarity with Ukraine and the anti-war movement in Russia and abroad. If you are confused about the purpose of this discussion, maybe you should stop contributing to this thread.

[voriki]

I'm not sure if you noticed but no one is talking about the banning of Russian players.

No one is talking about banning Russians? This whole thread is full of it.

Guess the argument ends here if you obviously ignore half the responses were amde here and don't read everything.

[dschingis27]

@Pushkiin. It's your right to find it obnoxious to not ban the flag. However, the way you write here will not get you anywhere. You should really stop to make everyone your enemy who doesn't follow your opinion 100%. Accusing others of being pro-death and pro-war will always make them aggressive towards you and doesn't help your credibility.
You deliberately misinterpret what others write and you make just obnoxious accusations. (By that I mean the accusations against BGA, BGA users, and users of this forum.) I mean, seriously?

to support the flag on BGA is to support the war and death in Ukraine.

Currently, around 80% of Russian population support Putin, statistically the number also reflects on players on BGA, especially considering the lacklustre response from them against the war in this thread.

I don't know if you know but most countries haven't yet banned russian flag in any way. It is not yet a universally accepted symbol of evil. Accusing others of being pro-war just because they don't ban russian flag or just out of thin air is disgusting. I can understand that it is a symbol of evil and death for you but what does it help to judge others just based on this point? Maybe you think that you awake us in this way from apathy. But no, in fact you just channel aggression towards you and your movement.

I know that your home country is going through absurdly horrible times. But shouting and punching at others who are actually not your enemy will not help.

[Pushkiin]

@Pushkiin. It's your right to find it obnoxious to not ban the flag. However, the way you write here will not get you anywhere. You should really stop to make everyone your enemy who doesn't follow your opinion 100%. Accusing others of being pro-death and pro-war will always make them aggressive towards you and doesn't help your credibility.
You deliberately misinterpret what others write and you make just obnoxious accusations. (By that I mean the accusations against BGA, BGA users, and users of this forum.) I mean, seriously?

First, I stay behind everything in said in this thread including the temporary banning of Russian players while the war and the genocide is going on Ukraine, and including the banning the flag. I can understand why you find it obnoxious because you are not directly implicated in the war, and from my perspective the death of Ukrainians don't matter enough for you to take more stronger actions, including on BGA. I can understand that to some degree but I can't control how you or other people feel about the arguments that I made in this thread. If you find my posts obnoxious, I think it says more about you and where you are coming rather than me and the points and suggestions that I have raised in this thread. I have tried to be constructive in this thread as much as I could by bring up different ideas, but from you and other folks, and all of the Russian players, I only saw resistance to anything that was discussed with no alternative proposals.

Again, I think this is indicative of your and other's sincerity to stop the war and to support anti-war movement. In my last posts, I have insisted at minimum for BGA to make another statement about the war and the genocide in Ukraine and to create an option to select whie-blue-white flag as a way for folks to show solidarity with anti-war movement in Russia and abroad. By ignoring my latest suggestion, you deliberately misrepresented me by citing my points from two months ago. Who is misrepresenting who?

I have not misrepresented BGA, I wrote to them and posted in this thread my exchange with them.

The war in Ukraine is polarizing because it is completely unprovoked with intention to exterminate Ukrainians as people. It's a genocidal war. If you are trying to find middle ground in this, to me that's also indicative of your perspective of how you understand the war. I suspect there were people in Germany during the WWII who tried to find middle ground in the committed atrocities, or something sort of justification. Your "middle ground position" that you try to convey as a reasonable one comes of as incredibly patronizing as you don't even acknowledge your own biases and positionally, implying that I need to control myself to be less obnoxious because this way I'm channelling aggression towards my movement. I'm glad that you at least acknowledged that the anti-war movement is not your movement. This is a good start and more honest, at least I know where you are coming from. I find your post are also incredibly undermining in this thread to anything that was discussed, for you to turn around I say I'm not your enemy is also incredibly disingenuous. Have you considered how you are coming off in this thread?

[dschingis27]

Well, my second citation of you was literally from your last post. And you stay behind everything you said in this thread but I misrepresent you by quoting something from 2 months ago that you posted at least twice?

And again you state more accusations. My point was not about your suggestions. My point was that you undermine yourself by constantly accusing others of bad faith out of thin air. Moreover, there is also a life next to BGA and you have no idea what people are doing there.

[Pushkiin]

Well, my second citation of you was literally from your last post. And you stay behind everything you said in this thread but I misrepresent you by quoting something from 2 months ago that you posted at least twice?

And again you state more accusations. My point was not about your suggestions. My point was that you undermine yourself by constantly accusing others of bad faith out of thin air. Moreover, there is also a life next to BGA and you have no idea what people are doing there.

Do you really not understand that as this thread evolved I was making different suggestions, but you preferred to focus on the one from 2 months ago and not on the most recent one? For what reason, to derail the thread again? So your intention is what exactly, to provoke me, call me aggressive and say nothing of substance? You are either doing this purposefully or are lacking any self awareness. Move along.

[dschingis27]

How much more clear can I make it? I do not even critizise the content of your suggestions. I critizise the way you present them.
You could have distanced yourself from your old statement, instead you wrote that you stand behind everything you said. But also in your recent post, you make a claim, which I have quoted before, that I can't stand.

Currently, around 80% of Russian population support Putin, statistically the number also reflects on players on BGA, especially considering the lacklustre response from them against the war in this thread.

This is not backed up by anything. You can't just make that claim about russian players on BGA and thereby accusing them of support of the war crime commiting government. As I said, it's the accusations you make that I just can't stand.
But I will follow your recommendation and move along now.

[Maludico]

I am sad that BGA is not doing more to put itself clearly on the side of Ukraine as the victim of a war of aggression and have decided not to renew my premium membership.

[Pushkiin]

Currently, around 80% of Russian population support Putin, statistically the number also reflects on players on BGA, especially considering the lacklustre response from them against the war in this thread.

The numbers are from here: https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/, as I previously provided them in this thread if you have alternative numbers please share them. I suspect that you will likely say again that we can't really know what the support truly is in totalitarian country, but this is an argument without any actual evidence. Of course we don't know how many on BGA support Putin but if follow the numbers from Levada Centre, the support should be statistically significant on BGA as well. I think the lacklustre response from Russian players to this thread is not coincidental.

Why should I distance from my old statement if the the bombs with Russian flag are falling on the homes of my loved ones? The fact that I change my demand is not indicative that I changed my opinion. My proposal to add the white-blue-white flag with a new statement from BGA I think is very modest, but it will help at least to problematize the Russian flag on this site that I think it deserves. Why not focus on the substance what I say now, rather than attempting to derail the discussion by focusing on my comments from 2 months ago? I suspect though that derailing the discussion is your main goal.

[Great_Martini]

This is an incredibly tricky situation, full of strong emotion. What is happening in Ukraine is totally abhorrent. Russia, as a country, is now a pariah and its indiscriminate acts on civilian, non-combat structures and population centres violate all manner of standards of honour and decency, and this cannot be supported or tolerated. As an individual, I will do all I can to prevent any of the money I spend going toward any person or company that trades with Russia or supports them, and I will speak out against the war and in support for the Ukrainian people defending their homeland.

But. This site is for playing games. I do not believe players from Russia should be banned from it, and I do not think the Russian flag should be removed. There are Russians who support Putin, and those who don't. If I come across anyone from Russia who raises their voice in support for what their country is doing, I will refuse to play with them, but so far, none of the Russian players I've come across in games have done so. I do not hold every Russian responsible for what their leaders do. Not on this site anyway.

Every player on BGA can play, or not, with Russian players according to their own positions - the options are there to avoid players we don't want to play with, but a ban - at the BGA admin level - is not the answer. For if we insist on that, where do we stop. Do we ban players from Belarus because their country is complicit with Putin in this aggression? Do we ban players from China, Sudan, Saudi Arabia and others because of their country's poor human rights record? Do we ban Israeli players because their country assassinates Palestinian journalists? These are just examples. BGA is not the right platform to take stands on those sort of issues against individuals in those countries.