Teaching a game on someone who don't like telling what to do

[Romain672]

Hi,
So I play mainly coops games, and I run into this situation I believe 3 times.

I play with someone, I explain the rules, and pretty early I tell him what to do and explain why. Then during the game I can tell more what to do on important turns.
Some players do what I requested, but others will try to do systematiquely something else. If it's after the first few turns, since it was an important action, that will just lead to complications. Do that twice or thrice, and the game will be chaostic/lost really fast.

On the other hand, if I'm not leading those important turns, since it's some coops games, that can make the game fastly not fun / need a restart. And since the game could be lost fast, it look like the other player will not like much the game, since the game was lost fast.

Any thoughs? Ideas?

[GeraldineMerida]

Ask the other player at the start how much guidance they want? And if you are going to do a significant amount on key moves, play in training mode, because otherwise you are getting a huge ELO bump from playing with a novice player, when in fact you are partially playing a second Romain.

[Meeplelowda]

Hi,
So I play mainly coops games, and I run into this situation I believe 3 times.

I play with someone, I explain the rules, and pretty early I tell him what to do and explain why. Then during the game I can tell more what to do on important turns.
Some players do what I requested, but others will try to do systematiquely something else. If it's after the first few turns, since it was an important action, that will just lead to complications. Do that twice or thrice, and the game will be chaostic/lost really fast.

On the other hand, if I'm not leading those important turns, since it's some coops games, that can make the game fastly not fun / need a restart. And since the game could be lost fast, it look like the other player will not like much the game, since the game was lost fast.

Any thoughs? Ideas?

It sounds like you are asking for any thoughts on how to get people to just do what you say because you know best.

When playing a cooperative game that I know well and another player doesn't, I give advice about what I think should be done and why I think it should be done once. That's it. Every player feeling like they have agency is more important to me than winning. Have you tried BGA's collection of solo games?

[Romain672]

With a second though, I think it's really a 'problem' of some coops games.

With most games, if you play with a beginner which just per example skip his turn, you can skip your turn too, and it will be fine. If he does like 2/3 suboptimal things, you can either skip your turn or do suboptimal things and the game will work well.
In others with a time limit like dice forge or season, it will kinda make you do less things until the end, but it's fine, the other player will get most of it.
In others like Noir: Killer versus Inspector, you can kinda know which person is the other but you can just restart or make the game duration be a little longer and it work well.

In some coops game, the game will be lost or will be way more complicated. Which make things more annoying to deal with.

Ask the other player at the start how much guidance they want? And if you are going to do a significant amount on key moves, play in training mode, because otherwise you are getting a huge ELO bump from playing with a novice player, when in fact you are partially playing a second Romain.

Elo isn't important, most games don't care about the elo of players to give a gain of elo anyway.

It sounds like you are asking for any thoughts on how to get people to just do what you say because you know best.

When playing a cooperative game that I know well and another player doesn't, I give advice about what I think should be done and why I think it should be done once. That's it. Every player feeling like they have agency is more important to me than winning. Have you tried BGA's collection of solo games?

I feel like you assume I'm giving advice on every turn, while it's really not the case, ie what i said on this post.
I could try to give even less guidance during the game, but if the player don't do the expected move, the game will be lost soon after, which doesn't look fun for both sides anyway. Like last time, it was a strategy tip, but it was I think the first time I was telling it.

[Sheba-leila]

Ich möchte von niemanden ungefragte Belehrungen. Für mich ist das aufdringlich und ich mag solche Spieler nicht. Ausser ich werde vorab gefragt und dann kommt es auf den Ton an.

[MoiMagnus]

I think there is a difference between "one experienced player on a table of beginners" than when it is "one beginner player on a table of experienced players".

On the former, the experienced player should limit its advices. In some ways, giving the "winning strategy" upfront can be seen as a spoiler.
On the later, the beginner should be "trained" to reach a reasonable level asap, so that they doesn't accidentally ruin the game for the experienced players.

Obviously, tables are often not clearly of one kind or the other, especially in two player games where there is no "majority", so there is a compromise to be found.

[cigma]

Hello Romain672,

I understand that you try to help new players, so that the group plays successfully. Some newbies will appreciate your hints and others prefer to find out on their own. For them it is part of the game experience to learn by their mistakes, and those players will probably not give up after they lost some of their first games.

But I also understand that you don't like to lose the game due to unexperienced players. So maybe you could limit your games to players with some experience or newbies you know and who welcome your help.

[Wreckage]

There should be an option for a player to allow a spectator to see their hand.

If a beginner had an option share the view of their hand with a spectator while discussing the game, this would be VERY useful. Or, if an experienced player had the option to share the view of their hand with a spectator while discussing the game, this would also be VERY useful.

I think this would be a huge improvement for the site in general. I've made this suggestion on the proper forum before, but, like most of my suggestions, nothing came from it.

[Ze Monstah]

There should be an option for a player to allow a spectator to see their hand.

If a beginner had an option share the view of their hand with a spectator while discussing the game, this would be VERY useful. Or, if an experienced player had the option to share the view of their hand with a spectator while discussing the game, this would also be VERY useful.

I think this would be a huge improvement for the site in general. I've made this suggestion on the proper forum before, but, like most of my suggestions, nothing came from it.

Perhaps in Training Mode games or Cooperative games, not normal ELO-competition ones, or that are not Cooperative.
Why would I want a (possibly really experienced) spectator help one of the opponents I play against, win (beginner or not)? In a game that involves ELO win or ELO loss, that is.

I personally don't start playing a game until I read the rules enough times or watch how others play it, so I don't see why beginners start playing competition-level games, games that they have 0 idea about.
If it is training mode or coop., sure... Anyone could help anyone or whatever, because there is no risk of anything.
Otherwise... not so fair for the ones not being helped (in my opinion).

Also, if a spectator wants to see a game in which a player has a Red Thumb on him/her, (s)he will see that it is impossible to view that game, with a red text like "a player at this table blocked you".
I assume this is also one of the reasons your idea was not implemented: because if BGA lowers the power a Red Thumb has, any Blocked person will be able to see what the one who Red Thumbed her/him plays (and even help the ones (s)he plays against, win). And I don't see what would be so fair about this.

[pjt33]

With a second though, I think it's really a 'problem' of some coops games.

With most games, if you play with a beginner which just per example skip his turn, you can skip your turn too, and it will be fine. If he does like 2/3 suboptimal things, you can either skip your turn or do suboptimal things and the game will work well.
In others with a time limit like dice forge or season, it will kinda make you do less things until the end, but it's fine, the other player will get most of it.

Dice Forge isn't a co-op game. Did you mean to put a different name?