why on line gamers are so impatient?

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Trouncing
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Joined: 12 August 2015, 22:01

Re: why on line gamers are so impatient?

Post by Trouncing »

In turn based that may be true, but in online it is definitely people mashing the button at -0:01. Only the first solution I proposed would possibly allow for a violating player in the way you describe to be saved. That would require a player or players with time donating their entire bank to the violating player. In this case, the colluding players would still eventually lose their time and be able to be skipped AND also incur the karma penalty.

The only solutions that are mutually exclusive are 1 and 3. Or maybe they aren't. I don't know because I am not a developer. 2 and 4 don't fundamentally change the way skipping works, just the ability to abuse it.

I made a more clear dev request here https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=96937 if you are interested.
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tchobello
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Re: why on line gamers are so impatient?

Post by tchobello »

Baddy1970 wrote: 12 July 2023, 17:32 Hello, I'm a regular tabletop gamer, but I recently started playing on bga especially Ark nova. I can't conceive of being expelled from a game because I exceed the time limit by a few moments (often because you are performing multiple actions in combos). Let me explain better if an action makes me perform a second one, time should be added. it's really boring to lose your game and your reputation (obviously the frustrated opponent kicks you out because he's losing). What do you think, is it a problem of online players? in real life no one would kick me out
If you think you lack time performing multiple actions in combos, you may file a suggestion report asking for extra time in some particular and precise actions.

Of course, check first if one is not already existing.
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LightKnight
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Re: why on line gamers are so impatient?

Post by LightKnight »

To me, the main issue is the fact that BGA implemented a concept of "reputation", with a moral sense in it (by naming it "karma"), that is at like 95% attached at playing on time (and the "5" other % are hidden from players: we know exactly how players lose karma when their opponent hit on red, but we do not know how you lose points otherwise: what is too many red thumbs? how is it calculated? how much points do you lose?).
It feels like BGA basically tells us: we do not really care how friendly you are, if you salute your opponent, if you try to help, etc. What really matters is if you are able to respect time limits. And if you do not, for whatever reason, then you are someone bad. We will even use a moral* concept to make you understand it perfectly, and openly show on your profile how good or bad you are.
* : To be fair, the concept of karma is more impersonal and less religious and manicheist than that of sin and the like in christian spirituality for instance, but it is still moral.
And it is quite frustrating.
This might be personal, but to me, the biggest issue isn't that you lose elo and reputation (although I don't understand why you should lose extra elo instead of just the equivalent of a simple loss), it's the fact that it's kinda morally framed like this, even just subtly.

You can win a little bit of respect by doing translations and the like, but this will not jump to the eyes as immediately (it's impossible to know unless you go to the profile of the player and read that part). This will just earn you a small discount on your subscription. It will be called "gift-points", and if you use them they will disappear. In a sense, it feels like it is a matter of paying by a form of work, very laboriously, and you will be rewarded for participating quantitatively and making arbitrary changes. What matters is not exactly that you spend time on the translations, only that you manage to get your translation to be the last one.
And since the gift-points vanish after use, the only real data appearing to show directly your level of contributions is the number of translations made (even if you did poor translations in a niche language en masse without getting caught, just to earn your subscription).

BGA has implemented a system for rewarding players for their behaviour, but in the end, unless they do things outrageous (like kingmaking) and are caught and reported, they are good players if they play on time regardless of all the rest (maybe they are douche who never say gg or anything nice, they sneak in technically-not-insults coldheart remarks, they hit red as soon as possible when they lose, etc.), and bad sheep otherwise (regardless of everything else, even if they contributed a lot to translations, offered enlightful remarks in the forums, helped numerous players to understand games, etc.). It feels like wasted potential.
I don't say it is easy to find alternatives, but in any case, the system feels frustrating. To this specific regard.
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nik592
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Re: why on line gamers are so impatient?

Post by nik592 »

LightKnight wrote: 27 August 2023, 17:06 I don't say it is easy to find alternatives, but in any case, the system feels frustrating. To this specific regard.
In general, whatever system is implemented, someone will find it doesn't suit them (possibly for legitimate reasons). If you have an idea how to improve things, suggest it. Otherwise, what is the point of your complaint? You expect BGA admin to come up with a better system somehow (and that isn't to say they won't make improvements, as I suspect they would if a good idea was presented)?

As far as time limits, as someone who is on BGA several times per day and enjoys (turn-based) games that move relatively quickly, I find people who run over their time limits frustrating. Especially when a game is well underway and it seems like one of the players just isn't going to come back. I don't get too bothered over it - if it's been too long, I boot and start a new game, and if I don't feel it's been too long, then I usually wait a bit longer - but I do know that occasionally people have genuine, understandable reasons for disappearing mid-game, so it's not worth getting too bothered by it.

As to "friendly", there's lots of different perspectives on what friendly looks like. I don't say "gg" on a lot of games because personally I feel like if I put it on every game, it becomes disingenuous and loses all meaning. But I'm personally the type of person who finds small talk boring and pointless IRL too - that's just who I am. I do say "gg" where I think a game was well played or hard fought - in other words, when I genuinely think a game was a good game. That said, I don't generally know if others are saying "gg" on every game by rote, or if they operate like me. So mostly, I don't worry about what others do, but I do what I feel is the best way. I do often reply "gg" when it is said to me, except in the case where several hours have passed, because again, when this happens to me, when someone just says "gg" 5 hours after the game ended, I have no idea which game it is (without clicking on it), and it means very little. So again, I do what I think best, and I don't think NOT saying "gg" (or chatting with my opponent, which I also I am happy to not do) that often makes me unfriendly.
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Cunning
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Re: why on line gamers are so impatient?

Post by Cunning »

Good discussion.
Something that occasionally surprises me is getting booted in the last few moves of the game when I'm still online and playing. It's happened a couple of times when I've been in limit for the bulk of the game except the end, or suffered a short wifi blackout and then run over.
Why would you boot someone who is clearly still playing when there are 1 to 2 moves left of a 20+ move game? I'm surprised not annoyed. I bet the other players at the table were annoyed though.
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Strode
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Re: why on line gamers are so impatient?

Post by Strode »

Cunning wrote: 28 August 2023, 15:51 Good discussion.
Something that occasionally surprises me is getting booted in the last few moves of the game when I'm still online and playing. It's happened a couple of times when I've been in limit for the bulk of the game except the end, or suffered a short wifi blackout and then run over.
Why would you boot someone who is clearly still playing when there are 1 to 2 moves left of a 20+ move game? I'm surprised not annoyed. I bet the other players at the table were annoyed though.
They were about to lose. So booting you off saved them the loss, at least from the Elo systems standpoint.
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nik592
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Re: why on line gamers are so impatient?

Post by nik592 »

Strode wrote: 28 August 2023, 20:01
Cunning wrote: 28 August 2023, 15:51 Good discussion.
Something that occasionally surprises me is getting booted in the last few moves of the game when I'm still online and playing. It's happened a couple of times when I've been in limit for the bulk of the game except the end, or suffered a short wifi blackout and then run over.
Why would you boot someone who is clearly still playing when there are 1 to 2 moves left of a 20+ move game? I'm surprised not annoyed. I bet the other players at the table were annoyed though.
They were about to lose. So booting you off saved them the loss, at least from the Elo systems standpoint.
Yep. I was in a tournament game yesterday - there were literally two turns left, mine and the person who did the booting, and it was like a final action (probably just a confirm) for the person who was booted. It's an elimination tournament and one player would have been eliminated, but that was going to be me as I was coming last by enough that I probably wasn't going to catch up - it was highly unlikely it would have been the player who did the booting. But they were likely going to come 3rd out of 4 players, meaning an ELO loss, so the only reason I can see that they booted was to avoid that. That's really not ok.
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Trouncing
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Re: why on line gamers are so impatient?

Post by Trouncing »

nik592 wrote: 28 August 2023, 22:54
Strode wrote: 28 August 2023, 20:01
Cunning wrote: 28 August 2023, 15:51 Good discussion.
Something that occasionally surprises me is getting booted in the last few moves of the game when I'm still online and playing. It's happened a couple of times when I've been in limit for the bulk of the game except the end, or suffered a short wifi blackout and then run over.
Why would you boot someone who is clearly still playing when there are 1 to 2 moves left of a 20+ move game? I'm surprised not annoyed. I bet the other players at the table were annoyed though.
They were about to lose. So booting you off saved them the loss, at least from the Elo systems standpoint.
Yep. I was in a tournament game yesterday - there were literally two turns left, mine and the person who did the booting, and it was like a final action (probably just a confirm) for the person who was booted. It's an elimination tournament and one player would have been eliminated, but that was going to be me as I was coming last by enough that I probably wasn't going to catch up - it was highly unlikely it would have been the player who did the booting. But they were likely going to come 3rd out of 4 players, meaning an ELO loss, so the only reason I can see that they booted was to avoid that. That's really not ok.
This is definitely a problem I have seen very often and it surprised me initially that more people weren't confirming it. People will use the button knowing it makes it harder to play to stop someone from winning and save their own ELO... not very sportsmanlike :(
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PrimusPalus
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Re: why on line gamers are so impatient?

Post by PrimusPalus »

Baddy1970 wrote: 12 July 2023, 17:32
Do you ask the other player to allow you more time?
He might not appreciate waiting with no news
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yugihoo
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Re: why on line gamers are so impatient?

Post by yugihoo »

Ark nova has a really big problem with this. I’ve lost 3 games now with 100% played. When you have a big combo with multiple moves time should be extended
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