63 leaves and 153 time warnings = 92% reputation?

[Cile]

There IS already a solution for these cases : If you have identified a player who is messing around, you can red-thumb him (and, as far as i know this works even for tournaments).

https://boardgamearena.com/faq

The effects of a red thumb are:

This player will not be able to play with you anymore (except if you meet in a tournament).

For all of those who require more harsh punishments for leavers : This will only fall back on normal players who run into a real-world problem. Some-one who spends his time on BGA destroying tournaments/tables on purpose will easily bypass any hard Karma-penalty -- for instance, just create a new account from scratch.

This thread is about people running out of time, not leavers. I'm asking for some penalty to be applied to players who run out of time as there are circumstances where that can cause issues for the other players at the table but they don't want to kick.

Creating a new account isn't an "easy" bypass if tournaments and arena require a minimum ELO, and players can set a minimum ELO on their games.

[ChiefPointThief]

So is this a bug? The player in question continuously gets kicked from games but only receives -4 karma. Shouldn’t it be -20 even if they are tournament games? Another issue here is that this player only has 100 elo in several games so they aren’t receiving any elo losses for their behavior. Under this circumstance you should be able to fall under 100 elo.

Each time you finish a game, if your clock has never been negative during this game, you get +1☯.
If you quit, or get kicked out of a game in progress, you lose 10☯ or even 20☯ if you already quit another game recently.
If you miss out on a planned tournament game: -4☯.

[Fuchur]

There IS already a solution for these cases : If you have identified a player who is messing around, you can red-thumb him (and, as far as i know this works even for tournaments).

https://boardgamearena.com/faq

The effects of a red thumb are:

This player will not be able to play with you anymore (except if you meet in a tournament).

Well, some people think that you can avoid them even in tournaments -- and use this to get a better rank.

For all of those who require more harsh punishments for leavers : This will only fall back on normal players who run into a real-world problem. Some-one who spends his time on BGA destroying tournaments/tables on purpose will easily bypass any hard Karma-penalty -- for instance, just create a new account from scratch.

This thread is about people running out of time, not leavers. I'm asking for some penalty to be applied to players who run out of time as there are circumstances where that can cause issues for the other players at the table but they don't want to kick.

*This* thread ? The title is "63 leaves ...", so you're probably talking about another thread but i can't identify which one.

Imagine, your rule would be implemented : In consequence, players like ChiefPointThief would have their Karma destroyed by a silly automatic rule while everybody at the concerned tables agreed and profited of his overtime.

"but they don't want to kick. ": Yeah, i've read to hidden intention somewhere in another thread : Being able to autowin, either by actually winning the game or by kicking the winner in the last turn.

Creating a new account isn't an "easy" bypass if tournaments and arena require a minimum ELO, and players can set a minimum ELO on their games.

Right now it might be easier to earn enough Karma to re-enter tournaments.

But threads like this (here is a whole bunch of them) seem to indicate that a lot of people haven't understood the principle of Karma : it is highly volatile and therefore not a good indicator of a players behaviour and character. Especially it doesn't show you whether someone is destroying tables on purpose or had only bad luck (real life problems, ugly timezones, ...).

So, if BGA gives one day in and makes the impact of leaves and/or overtimes on Karma stronger it will affect fully affect normal players. The "bad apples" will easily find a work-around; for instance creating a new account might be a waste of time now, but with larger Karma losses there will be a tipping point where a new account will quicker gain the ELO to join tournaments than an old regain the Karma requirements.

[ChiefPointThief]

Imagine, your rule would be implemented : In consequence, players like ChiefPointThief would have their Karma destroyed by a silly automatic rule while everybody at the concerned tables agreed and profited of his overtime.

I would be perfectly fine. Even w/ me purposely going over time in games w/ friends I still only do so 1 out of 32 games. If there was an actually penalty put in place for ppl going over time I would’ve respected the clock more and other players would have to also. Like I mentioned on the other similar topic I could care less about punishing other players. I just want to play games w/o shenanigans but unfortunately that isn’t possible due to some people so measures need to be put in place.

I started only playing in tournaments w/ friends to avoid a lot of these problems. For the 1st time in awhile I joined tournaments w/ strangers. First tournament player c hasn’t been online in 5 days and the clock will most likely run out soon. Only one person advances per game so I’m unsure how that’s going to work when they time out. Tournament ruined for people immediately. The other someone went over time at the beginning of the game. Now any player at the table can time them out whenever they want to. This happens way too often. Ppl need to have more accountability and stop joining tournaments they can’t meet the time requirements for.

[Fuchur]

Imagine, your rule would be implemented : In consequence, players like ChiefPointThief would have their Karma destroyed by a silly automatic rule while everybody at the concerned tables agreed and profited of his overtime.

I would be perfectly fine. Even w/ me purposely going over time in games w/ friends I still only do so 1 out of 32 games. If there was an actually penalty put in place for ppl going over time I would’ve respected the clock more and other players would have to also. Like I mentioned on the other similar topic I could care less about punishing other players. I just want to play games w/o shenanigans but unfortunately that isn’t possible due to some people so measures need to be put in place.

I started only playing in tournaments w/ friends to avoid a lot of these problems. For the 1st time in awhile I joined tournaments w/ strangers. First tournament player c hasn’t been online in 5 days and the clock will most likely run out soon. Only one person advances per game so I’m unsure how that’s going to work when they time out. Tournament ruined for people immediately. The other someone went over time at the beginning of the game. Now any player at the table can time them out whenever they want to. This happens way too often. Ppl need to have more accountability and stop joining tournaments they can’t meet the time requirements for.

if you would be able to keep your Karma at the top despite having regularly overtimes (and some leaves, too) resulting in Karma drops, than other people will be able to do so, also. (This is in fact the reason of this thread : Being able to maintain a good Karma in spite of a lot of leaves and overtimes).
Yes, BGA could increase the Karma penalties, but some people will still be able to have a bad history and a good Karma (by the way : Your history doesn't look good; you've explained the reasons and i believe you, but an algorithm wouldn't see a difference between you and a "bad apple" and sort you out). If there are really people who do this on purpose (i doubt this), they would find a way to continue. The only ones to suffer would be the normal players.

I think the solution can't reside in harsher rules for Karma loss but in better solutions for spoiled tables, especially in tournaments : For instance, kick the overtime players and the others restart ? If there would be a reasonable KI to replace the overtime players, it might even be worthwhile to continue to play (but this seems to be difficult to implement -- until now i haven't seen any KI able to replace a human here on this site).

[Cile]

There IS already a solution for these cases : If you have identified a player who is messing around, you can red-thumb him (and, as far as i know this works even for tournaments).

https://boardgamearena.com/faq

The effects of a red thumb are:

This player will not be able to play with you anymore (except if you meet in a tournament).

Well, some people think that you can avoid them even in tournaments -- and use this to get a better rank.

I don't know know how you expect anyone to take you seriously when you've been directed to the actual information as to how the system works and your response is "well some people think it works differently". It doesn't. If you're just going to argue about how you imagine things to be then this is a waste of time.

For all of those who require more harsh punishments for leavers : This will only fall back on normal players who run into a real-world problem. Some-one who spends his time on BGA destroying tournaments/tables on purpose will easily bypass any hard Karma-penalty -- for instance, just create a new account from scratch.

This thread is about people running out of time, not leavers. I'm asking for some penalty to be applied to players who run out of time as there are circumstances where that can cause issues for the other players at the table but they don't want to kick.

*This* thread ? The title is "63 leaves ...", so you're probably talking about another thread but i can't identify which one.

Imagine, your rule would be implemented : In consequence, players like ChiefPointThief would have their Karma destroyed by a silly automatic rule while everybody at the concerned tables agreed and profited of his overtime.

"but they don't want to kick. ": Yeah, i've read to hidden intention somewhere in another thread : Being able to autowin, either by actually winning the game or by kicking the winner in the last turn.

Reread the first post of *This* thread. It is about a player having a negative impact on a tournament by timing out and not being kicked.

And your argument really falls apart when the person you say will face consequences from this is perfectly fine with that happening.

But threads like this (here is a whole bunch of them) seem to indicate that a lot of people haven't understood the principle of Karma : it is highly volatile and therefore not a good indicator of a players behaviour and character. Especially it doesn't show you whether someone is destroying tables on purpose or had only bad luck (real life problems, ugly timezones, ...).

So, if BGA gives one day in and makes the impact of leaves and/or overtimes on Karma stronger it will affect fully affect normal players. The "bad apples" will easily find a work-around; for instance creating a new account might be a waste of time now, but with larger Karma losses there will be a tipping point where a new account will quicker gain the ELO to join tournaments than an old regain the Karma requirements.

So you admit that the current system is insufficient, and you propose BGA does... nothing? "Yes people can abuse the system, but they'll find workarounds so there's no point in trying to have any consequences."

First, it won't "fully affect normal players". Normal players play within their turn times and won't be affected at all. The occasional time penalty won't inhibit a users ability to participate in the site. It will fully affect players who routinely run over their time limit, which is exactly what I'm asking for.

Second, I don't care if it hits a tipping point that it becomes "easier" to make a new account. The "bad apples" will still have to go the process of creating a new account, and winning enough games (while playing within their turn timers), to be able to enter tournaments again. You know what's easier than that? Not ignoring the time limits on games you join.

[Fuchur]

Well, some people think that you can avoid them even in tournaments -- and use this to get a better rank.

I don't know know how you expect anyone to take you seriously when you've been directed to the actual information as to how the system works and your response is "well some people think it works differently". It doesn't. If you're just going to argue about how you imagine things to be then this is a waste of time.

So you believe that everything on this site functions as it is described ? That this site is totally bug-free ?
This is wrong for (at least some) game implementations and might be wrong for some administrative parts of he site.
I haven't tested if you can meet red-thumbed people in tournaments but i've seen a thread where people were complaining about this, having a huge negatif side-effect. Did you read all bug-reports, test all functionalities ?

This thread is about people running out of time, not leavers. I'm asking for some penalty to be applied to players who run out of time as there are circumstances where that can cause issues for the other players at the table but they don't want to kick.

*This* thread ? The title is "63 leaves ...", so you're probably talking about another thread but i can't identify which one.

Imagine, your rule would be implemented : In consequence, players like ChiefPointThief would have their Karma destroyed by a silly automatic rule while everybody at the concerned tables agreed and profited of his overtime.

"but they don't want to kick. ": Yeah, i've read to hidden intention somewhere in another thread : Being able to autowin, either by actually winning the game or by kicking the winner in the last turn.

Reread the first post of *This* thread. It is about a player having a negative impact on a tournament by timing out and not being kicked.

And your argument really falls apart when the person you say will face consequences from this is perfectly fine with that happening.

No, it's not. This is a thread from someone who is wondering why someone with a bad history can have a good Karma.

But threads like this (here is a whole bunch of them) seem to indicate that a lot of people haven't understood the principle of Karma : it is highly volatile and therefore not a good indicator of a players behaviour and character. Especially it doesn't show you whether someone is destroying tables on purpose or had only bad luck (real life problems, ugly timezones, ...).

So, if BGA gives one day in and makes the impact of leaves and/or overtimes on Karma stronger it will affect fully affect normal players. The "bad apples" will easily find a work-around; for instance creating a new account might be a waste of time now, but with larger Karma losses there will be a tipping point where a new account will quicker gain the ELO to join tournaments than an old regain the Karma requirements.

So you admit that the current system is insufficient, and you propose BGA does... nothing? "Yes people can abuse the system, but they'll find workarounds so there's no point in trying to have any consequences."

No, i don't. I think that the existing rules are to harsh -- one bad day and you face a huge drop in Karma. This penalizes normal players AND it doesn't help against "bad apples".

First, it won't "fully affect normal players". Normal players play within their turn times and won't be affected at all. The occasional time penalty won't inhibit a users ability to participate in the site. It will fully affect players who routinely run over their time limit, which is exactly what I'm asking for.

This is nonsense. Every normal player can face a real-world problem and is already punished by this unbalanced Karma-policy.

Second, I don't care if it hits a tipping point that it becomes "easier" to make a new account. The "bad apples" will still have to go the process of creating a new account, and winning enough games (while playing within their turn timers), to be able to enter tournaments again. You know what's easier than that? Not ignoring the time limits on games you join.

[IRONY ON] Why so reluctantly ? Anyone who dares to get into the red should be banned immediately from the site.They will think twice before trying a new account.
[IRONY OFF]

[Remkar]

Cile is 100% correct about everything!

Except I think punishments should be even harsher.

I'd love a system where players are just banned from certain speeds. If you keep going over time at 8 turns per day and faster, you get banned from that speed and faster for a month.

Or a year, I don't care, so sick of players ruining games by not paying on time and try having perfect karma because karma penalties are a useless joke. I think that is a pipe dream, though, probably too much work to implement.

I'd also love a filter to let me select "only players with 0 time warnings in last 60 days allowed." In fact, maybe that alone would solve most of these problems? Thoughts?

[Cile]

I haven't tested if you can meet red-thumbed people in tournaments

"I haven't tested it or encountered it myself but I'm going to assume my feelings about how it might not be working properly is more valid than your facts about how it's supposed to work."

Plugging your ears and screaming "NO NO NO" isn't an argument. That's not even hyperbole:

No, it's not.

No, i don't.

This is nonsense.

Anyone who dares to get into the red should be banned immediately from the site.They will think twice before trying a new account.

"See how well I knocked down this man made of straw I built all by myself? HA!"

Ya, this is a waste of time. If you can't even agree with a proven fact, with a source, about the current intended functionally of the site there's no point trying to get you to understand something more objective. Especially when you hear "some consequences should exist" and think that means "eVeRy OnE sHoUlD bE bAnNeD!!1!1!1"

[Fuchur]

I haven't tested if you can meet red-thumbed people in tournaments

"I haven't tested it or encountered it myself but I'm going to assume my feelings about how it might not be working properly is more valid than your facts about how it's supposed to work."

Plugging your ears and screaming "NO NO NO" isn't an argument. That's not even hyperbole:

No, it's not.

No, i don't.

This is nonsense.

Anyone who dares to get into the red should be banned immediately from the site.They will think twice before trying a new account.

"See how well I knocked down this man made of straw I built all by myself? HA!"

Ya, this is a waste of time. If you can't even agree with a proven fact, with a source, about the current intended functionally of the site there's no point trying to get you to understand something more objective. Especially when you hear "some consequences should exist" and think that means "eVeRy OnE sHoUlD bE bAnNeD!!1!1!1"

WEll, it's clear that we are arguing in a circle.

I think we do both agree that the system with Karma loss at it is implemented right now doesn't prevent players to encounter frequently tables were someone is late/leaves/is kicked which is particularly annoying in tournaments.
Our conclusions, however, are completely opposite : You say, it doesn't work so we should increase the dose.
I say, it doesn't work -- let's find something else.

To come back to the "proven fact" : You have nothing proven, you just found a FAQ that something SHOULD work in this way.