🌿ELO System Updates

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teallite
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Joined: 12 August 2023, 23:05

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by teallite »

Silene wrote: 24 January 2024, 16:44 Just trying to find ways to honor their initial objective of preventing cheating through power-levelling vs. puppet-opponents - just without the implemented side-effects of draining honest players and avoidance of making new friends.
As I said before, BGA's initial objective of preventing cheating through power-levelling vs. puppet-opponents won't work with these changes. Instead of 1 puppet cheaters will make 5 puppets. Each of these will be quickly matched against each other to reach 100 ELO. After that each puppet can be boosted separately. Get one puppet to 200-300 ELO and then "transfer" some of it to main account. Go on to the next puppet. Since puppets can lose against each other, they can be boosted again. And 5 puppets are enough to get huge gains and outwait winstreak cooldown period. Make it 10 puppets if 5 are not enough.
h_illes wrote: 24 January 2024, 19:29 A lower K factor would effectively slow down changes. Everyone's ELO would still converge to the value reflecting their skill, just slower, and once it got there, it would remain more stable.
Okay. It's even easier now. Main account can lose to a puppet without hurting its ELO and reset winstreak.
Players would have to rely more on skill if they want to reach the top 10 (or whatever top spot) rather than via a lucky streak.
Why? You just need a lucky streak against different opponents. Or if you are lucky because you are matched with the same weaker opponent, you can lose to him on purpose when K-factor is low, reset it and continue to win again. Btw, a slow but easy way to reach the top 10 is to hunt for apprentices/beginners. No skill, no luck. I see it in some games already.
ChiefPointThief wrote: 24 January 2024, 21:55 Also these changes are NOT stopping cheaters.
Exactly. It doesn't stop cheaters, it doesn't stop unfair play. Cheaters like an easy way. BGA created a little hurdle (and broke our legs in the process), but it's still the easy way.
Nuzzer71 wrote: 25 January 2024, 02:14 How do you cheat in Arena mode to become Champion? I thought the matching was random. Asking for a friend ;)
Oh, but it is not random, see, it's just blind. And in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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h_illes
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Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by h_illes »

teallite wrote: 25 January 2024, 10:38
Players would have to rely more on skill if they want to reach the top 10 (or whatever top spot) rather than via a lucky streak.
Why? You just need a lucky streak against different opponents. Or if you are lucky because you are matched with the same weaker opponent, you can lose to him on purpose when K-factor is low, reset it and continue to win again. Btw, a slow but easy way to reach the top 10 is to hunt for apprentices/beginners. No skill, no luck. I see it in some games already.
Yes, you are right. I was thinking of a situation where K factor is universally low.

I agree with you that these changes will not stop cheaters and I don't see a way to tweak them to be effective either. At the end of the day, there might not be a better way to stop cheaters than active monitoring and intervention. (But I also see that's very resource-consuming.)
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Wonderful Plays
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Joined: 20 September 2018, 13:06

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Wonderful Plays »

The method to stop the cheaters is to simply.... stop the cheaters, not change the system for everyone.
Implement detection algorithms that automatically flag weird behavior, enhance reporting mechanism to work with that framework and have people who will verify the cheating manually with an appeal process.

And show the community that you are serious about anti cheating, because people keeping their arena badges even when they were found out to be cheating by BGA themselves is not a good look.
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h_illes
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Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by h_illes »

So, after 1.5 months, 470+ replies and 1000000+ views, you managed a grand total of 1 (ONE) official replies, despite players repeatedly asking for more feedback. That is just utterly shameful. There is really no excuse for the lack of communication.
LesserJester
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Joined: 16 November 2022, 14:37

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by LesserJester »

Can't we just roll back to the old ELO system? Sure it wasn't perfect but as the discussion here points out nor is this, and this implementation seems far worse overall so couldn't BGA just blow the dust off the old code and stick it back again how it was? I miss seeing the K factor
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h_illes
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Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by h_illes »

lordalx wrote: 02 January 2024, 11:39
  • Power leveling: we continue to monitor the status and it seems unfair not to be able to win ELO and only suffer the loss, even for players that keep on losing against the very same opponent.
It seems you don't fully understand the issues. It is not simply unfair, this version of ELO makes no sense as any meaningful measure of skill. If two players keep playing each other, in the long run, both of their ratings will decrease until one of them hits 100 - regardless of what their initial rating was, or what their actual skill level is. If it's not just two players, but a larger group, the same remains valid (it might just take longer for one of them to hit 100).

I am still baffled how this got through quality control. But that's one thing, another troublesome issue is the complete lack of communication. What's with you people? Did someone in management forbid you to respond? Or is it by your own will? I compel you to reply, lordalx.
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Osnofaac
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Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Osnofaac »

h_illes wrote: 26 January 2024, 16:05
lordalx wrote: 02 January 2024, 11:39
  • Power leveling: we continue to monitor the status and it seems unfair not to be able to win ELO and only suffer the loss, even for players that keep on losing against the very same opponent.
It seems you don't fully understand the issues. It is not simply unfair, this version of ELO makes no sense as any meaningful measure of skill. If two players keep playing each other, in the long run, both of their ratings will decrease until one of them hits 100 - regardless of what their initial rating was, or what their actual skill level is. If it's not just two players, but a larger group, the same remains valid (it might just take longer for one of them to hit 100).

I am still baffled how this got through quality control. But that's one thing, another troublesome issue is the complete lack of communication. What's with you people? Did someone in management forbid you to respond? Or is it by your own will? I compel you to reply, lordalx.
It no longer surprises me. if it takes this amount of time to monitor this... After receiving the newsletter with the 2023 year in review in which they failed to even get something as easy as my peak elo at carcassonne... quality is not something that defines BGA nowadays.
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Meeplelowda
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Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Meeplelowda »

Wonderful Plays wrote: 25 January 2024, 13:22 The method to stop the cheaters is to simply.... stop the cheaters
You state this as if it is simple to do. It isn't easy, and it isn't cost free.
Wonderful Plays wrote: 25 January 2024, 13:22 Implement detection algorithms that automatically flag weird behavior, enhance reporting mechanism to work with that framework and have people who will verify the cheating manually with an appeal process.
Before you "implement" a detection algorithm, you have to develop it. And you have to develop it in a way that doesn't yield unreasonably high false positives and false negatives. That development isn't simple or cost free. You've just seen the result of an attempt to implement a quick and dirty automated detection of "weird behavior" (power leveling). They tried....and got it wrong. And this manual appeal mechanism would also not be cost free.
Wonderful Plays wrote: 25 January 2024, 13:22 And show the community that you are serious about anti cheating, because people keeping their arena badges even when they were found out to be cheating by BGA themselves is not a good look.
This is the one part I agree with wholeheartedly. There is a thread about a recent instance of this happening. In that thread, someone posted this:
As said before, I sent a private message to a "board game arena" admin about this topic. Here is the answer (received today):
"I have brought your concerns up to the team and we agree something needs to done about cases like this. Unfortunately, right now we are dealing with a serious server issue and will not be able to divert our attention to it this week. I have made a To-Do post about it on our internal messaging board and we will be addressing the problem in the future. I realise this is not the outcome you were hoping for for this season, but hopefully we will be able to apply a better solution for all cases in the future." (emphasis added)
Although it is extremely frustrating to see cheaters get caught yet retain the fruits of their cheating, at the end of the day I'd prefer scarce resources be spent on mission critical issues first. In my head I'm thinking "how hard can it be to edit the SQL table to eliminate the cheater, then rerun the ranking? Can't take more than 15 minutes, right?" But I'm cognizant that things always look easy from the outside.
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Trimpster
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Joined: 11 September 2023, 16:25

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Trimpster »

I have avoided playing games on BGA because of this stupid change, I can't believe it has been this long and it hasn't been reverted back, this incompetency knows no bounds.
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Siveure
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Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Siveure »

I think there is absolutely also a non-cheating group of players that engage in behaviour that the power levelling change is supposed to catch. I think this behaviour does result in very high ratings. An issue is these players are, I believe, not doing it primarily for the rating :lol: .

The basic problem comes down to that the matchmaking systems that BGA has are bad at giving you a fairly equal opponent. You could get close opponents, or somebody several hundred rating points higher than you, or somebody several hundred rating points lower than you if you queue up an arena game or take any simple game you can, or enter an open tournament. I don't fault BGA for this, it's good at getting games and it'd probably be unreasonable to be too picky with opponents you can get and still keep good queue times (they're already very long in some games).

If you're a high rated player it's reasonable that you may get frustrated with huge mismatches against much weaker opponents, because the games themselves are so lopsided, the outcome is predictable so you don't get much elo, and if it goes wrong you lose a lot of elo. This is not to mention multiplayer games where one weak player can randomly kingmake for any of the other players with weak moves. So some high rated players are going to look for a solution to the matchmaking giving them mismatches.

A very easy solution to having mismatches for high rated players is to get in contact with the other high rated players and arrange games between themselves. This will be a small pool of players fairly closely rated to each other playing each other probably repeatedly. Variance in small samples being what it is, somebody is probably going to go on a winstreak in these games. This is true even if none of the players in this pool is better than the others, but very likely one of them are.

The issue with these games comes if they're rated games (and they probably are). You have a pool of players that are closely rated - so if winstreaks happen, that player is going to be getting a lot of elo because they're playing peer opponents (and winstreaks for someone are very likely). They're also already highly rated - so a lot of elo means almost surely they're getting to the #1 spot. Anyone not doing this has to compete with much higher changes per game as they are matched against much lower rated opposition on average - which is very hard to keep up with.

How do the powerlevelling changes affect this behaviour? The answer is basically not at all. Absolutely nothing was done to incentivize players to move back to playing the low rated opponents - it was just a disincentive from playing the same opponents. If the community is sufficiently small enough this change actually disincentivizes playing low rated opponents for high rated players who care about elo. As far as the disincentive to playing the same high rated players repeatedly - as the goal is not elo, but getting better matchmaking than BGA does, it doesn't matter.

As far as just curbing the effect on elo of these behaviours, as eliminating the behaviours seems difficult, I don't think the new system does enough. The rating changes per game will still be much larger in these games with the powerleveling change than against weaker opposition. The entire issue here is that a small winstreak in such pools puts a player at the #1 ranking, and this can happen before the powerlevelling changes detect it and kick in with large penalties (even though such penalties happen absurdly fast in any other context :lol: ).
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