Reconsider Arena Rankings System

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1000esqrtn1
Posts: 24
Joined: 15 November 2023, 19:20

Re: Reconsider Arena Rankings System

Post by 1000esqrtn1 »

Ceaseless wrote: 12 April 2024, 12:16
1000esqrtn1 wrote: 12 April 2024, 07:14
RobertBr wrote: 11 April 2024, 15:55

That is a fundamental misunderstanding of how Elo works (its named after Arpad Elo, its not an abbreviation, so you don't capitalise it). What you are suggesting is completely wrong - that you don't get the same points is why it does reflect ability.
He has a point though, on most competitions that use ELO, ELO is not constantly updated. It shows some flaws the fact that if I play 4 consecutive games against the same player (assuming he is already medium-experienced) WWWL will always give less points than LWWW. The player is the same, it was a single play session so the outcome should be the same.

A common idea that we most agree on this topic is that Arena is too long, which difficult things like freezing ELOs. However, ELOs/Arena Points could be updated once per week/2 weeks. Hence, in that period you know how much your wins will be worth. As said, this is not new, as most Chess tournaments work like this
I'm thinking this is more of an access issue. Chess tournaments IRL may be slow on the update, but they're old and used to be even slower. On the other hand, modern rating systems in online Chess update immediately, BGA isn't unique in this regard. I've not seen anything to indicate the Chess system you refer to chose its pace for its accuracy.
Fair enough, although the same counter argument could be made for online. On online platforms is much easier to store a single number per player, than a string of values that stores its last n games. My point is that player improvement is achieved through time, not suddenly, so this constant waves are a bit meaningless. Even on systems that do not use ELO, tournaments tend to be treated as a block, where a series of games result in an increase or decrease of your ranking.

The point is what do we value higher, streaks or consistent perfomance? The first values better LW than WL, while the latter values them equal. I prefer the latter
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maveleo
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Joined: 23 May 2023, 08:22

Re: Reconsider Arena Rankings System

Post by maveleo »

Truth is ... another arena started and nothing changed.
Could be lack of capability or lack of will, still shame on the platform management that once again don't do anything to fix things.
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Lady_Jane
Posts: 48
Joined: 05 January 2024, 04:59

Re: Reconsider Arena Rankings System

Post by Lady_Jane »

maveleo wrote: 12 April 2024, 22:22 Truth is ... another arena started and nothing changed.
Could be lack of capability or lack of will, still shame on the platform management that once again don't do anything to fix things.
no one can even agree that it's broken or how to fix it, but shame on them? lol
Gulchen
Posts: 220
Joined: 01 October 2017, 06:55

Re: Reconsider Arena Rankings System

Post by Gulchen »

I don't recall anyone before this post even bringing up anywhere in BGA's forums the possibility of getting such access
to the results - let alone indicating having checked if one could ask BGA Support whether BGA provides such access -
but if BGA provides a much easier way of getting ​ Latest results ​ for specific games than clicking enter a huge
number of times to get roughly 10 at a time, then the thing to do would be trying to find a different system which

still respects the ​ can't lose points when new points are less than 100 ​ thing
and
is a more accurate predictor of future results

.


(Even if - as it now seems to me - there's no option to ask BGA Support about this,
one might be able to find something from browser ​ ​ ​ Developer tools ​ .)
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maveleo
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Joined: 23 May 2023, 08:22

Re: Reconsider Arena Rankings System

Post by maveleo »

MrsHayden wrote: 12 April 2024, 22:39
maveleo wrote: 12 April 2024, 22:22 Truth is ... another arena started and nothing changed.
Could be lack of capability or lack of will, still shame on the platform management that once again don't do anything to fix things.
no one can even agree that it's broken or how to fix it, but shame on them? lol
So many players on this forum, chat and outside the platform complaining about the "streak" non sense expecially for games with a lucky factor and you say "no one can even agree" ? lol
Go trolling on FB next time
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Lady_Jane
Posts: 48
Joined: 05 January 2024, 04:59

Re: Reconsider Arena Rankings System

Post by Lady_Jane »

maveleo wrote: 13 April 2024, 06:07
MrsHayden wrote: 12 April 2024, 22:39
maveleo wrote: 12 April 2024, 22:22 Truth is ... another arena started and nothing changed.
Could be lack of capability or lack of will, still shame on the platform management that once again don't do anything to fix things.
no one can even agree that it's broken or how to fix it, but shame on them? lol
So many players on this forum, chat and outside the platform complaining about the "streak" non sense expecially for games with a lucky factor and you say "no one can even agree" ? lol
Go trolling on FB next time
you also have people saying it's not broken, and people with different ideas about how to fix it. do you know what agree means?
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maveleo
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Joined: 23 May 2023, 08:22

Re: Reconsider Arena Rankings System

Post by maveleo »

MrsHayden wrote: 14 April 2024, 03:18
maveleo wrote: 13 April 2024, 06:07
MrsHayden wrote: 12 April 2024, 22:39

no one can even agree that it's broken or how to fix it, but shame on them? lol
So many players on this forum, chat and outside the platform complaining about the "streak" non sense expecially for games with a lucky factor and you say "no one can even agree" ? lol
Go trolling on FB next time
you also have people saying it's not broken, and people with different ideas about how to fix it. do you know what agree means?
As I said, but maybe you fail to understand ... Go addressing someone else with your superiority.
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Lady_Jane
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Joined: 05 January 2024, 04:59

Re: Reconsider Arena Rankings System

Post by Lady_Jane »

maveleo wrote: 14 April 2024, 13:26 As I said, but maybe you fail to understand ... Go addressing someone else with your superiority.
i would think the one saying "shame on them" and telling someone to troll fb is the one acting superior... but hey, that's just me. have a great night maveleo.
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ChiefPointThief
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Joined: 14 August 2020, 22:27

Re: Reconsider Arena Rankings System

Post by ChiefPointThief »

MrsHayden wrote: 12 April 2024, 22:39
maveleo wrote: 12 April 2024, 22:22 Truth is ... another arena started and nothing changed.
Could be lack of capability or lack of will, still shame on the platform management that once again don't do anything to fix things.
no one can even agree that it's broken or how to fix it, but shame on them? lol
I think most people would agree that arena is flawed in some capacity even if not for this reason. What is your opinion on the current topic? I threw a bunch of numbers at you after you said you weren't good with numbers :D .
So the same person that I discussed before ended up winning arena by a comfortable margin even after playing poor for their 1st 104 games, average for their next 278, and above average only for their last 36 games. Meanwhile the runner up played above average the entire season. They were basically above 1700 all season. They just didn't put together a streak to get them in the 1800s. They did play way less games (I counted 148). But in those games they had a way higher win% (61%) and their strength of schedule appears to be tougher also. Most of their games were vs other top players.
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Lady_Jane
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Re: Reconsider Arena Rankings System

Post by Lady_Jane »

ChiefPointThief wrote: 15 April 2024, 14:26 I think most people would agree that arena is flawed in some capacity even if not for this reason. What is your opinion on the current topic? I threw a bunch of numbers at you after you said you weren't good with numbers :D .
So the same person that I discussed before ended up winning arena by a comfortable margin even after playing poor for their 1st 104 games, average for their next 278, and above average only for their last 36 games. Meanwhile the runner up played above average the entire season. They were basically above 1700 all season. They just didn't put together a streak to get them in the 1800s. They did play way less games (I counted 148). But in those games they had a way higher win% (61%) and their strength of schedule appears to be tougher also. Most of their games were vs other top players.
Ugh, just lost my whole post... take 2 lol...

I still don't have a super strong opinion on it. To be clear, my reaction was more about the shame on them comment which i thought was kind of overboard and possibly unfair.

The info you provided and explained did help a lot (thanks :) ). And i continue reading as others add, even though i still don't understand 100% of all of it. I don't think i necessarily have an issue with someone starting the season weak, improving, and ending the season in #1. That could arguably be motivation for others to keep playing and trying.

However, i agree that if the info you're sharing is accurate, it seems pretty unfair. I would like to see rankings actually represent skill level (#1 is the best player out there, 2 is second best, etc). I just don't know what system (if any) does that, or what it looks like. And frankly, i'm not invested enough to try to figure that out. I enjoy playing the games, or i wouldn't play. The competition is secondary to me. I can certainly see how people would be so frustrated by a system that allows someone consistently playing at a higher level ending up ranking lower.

To your point, i just took a look at my game history with these players at the top of the leaderboard and it definitely doesn't seem right. I don't remember the exact numbers now (after losing my post) but it was something like: i won (not including ties) around 50% of games against #1, 25% against #2, 13% against #3, and 33% against #4. Not that playing me is necessarily representative of anything, but just as an example.

It just seems that for every system or method someone brings up, there's someone else right there to point out a flaw or unpleasant aspect of it. I don't know - maybe the answer is to have 4 different leaderboards with 4 different ranking systems? It would be messy, but at least then people can care about the one they want to care about, and those who are TRULY competitive can try to win them all :) .

what is strength of schedule?
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