Weak Cards Banlist Discussion!

[cranesflyhigh]

While I personally still stand by our initial suggestion in the first post, I am okay with a somewhat reduced banlist that Alex first proposed and lezurichois reposted, that sounds like a good middle ground.

Thanks Acerbic for your work! I am pretty sure these changes will make Agricola a better game!

[alexwjb]

Thanks Acerbic for getting approval to make this happen!

I’ve gone through the comments in this thread and different people have messaged me with their views. This is the best consensus I can come up with for a weak cards banlist:

Occupations

A100 Curator
A107 Catcher
A144 Sequestrator
A154 Paymaster
A151 Minstrel
A167 Breeder Buyer
B101 Furniture Carpenter
B139 Forest Scientist
B147 Huntsman
C157 Resource Analyzer
C154 Twin Researcher
C158 Forest Campaigner
D101 Sugar Baker
D116 Tree Inspector
D140 Loudmouth
D165 Pig Stalker
E108 Blackberry Farmer

Minor Improvements

A070 Lifting Machine
C012 Cattle Farm
C084 Perennial Rye


Notes:
I have removed Roughcaster and Growing Farm from the list, as both had multiple people say they wanted to keep them and had seen them be useful.

I checked the history and Forest Campaigner was removed from my “Middle Ground” list by mistake. It has extremely low power and a very high average draft position.

I’ve had feedback that while Sequestrator and Forest Scientist are meme cards, on objective grounds they also need to be included. Both are awful on the metrics and not actually interesting other than the jokes about them.

Some people have pushed to include more minor improvements on the list. I have included Cattle Farm that multiple people have suggested to me as terrible (and I agree, see the OP for reasoning). I would also personally be fine banning more, but for some reason the minors seem to have more cards that fall into the category of “occasionally useful in niche strategies” (Facades Carving, Elephantgrass Plant, Agricultural Fertilizers all fall into this category). I’m worried about making this list bigger than people are comfortable with, so I have kept them off this list.

One person in this thread argued to keep Sugar Baker, but again multiple people have said they want it included. It’s just so extremely rare that it is a good idea that I have put it back in.

[cranesflyhigh]

UwU

This looks like a great list, Alex (might have had some input, so totally not biased), although gotta be said (and sad): Forest Scientist not EVEN 2 FOOD worth to keep it???!!! (I agree with the ban tho, just a little sad for the meme to die )

[Ranior]

I think the occupation list looks good.

I don't have the time to go through the minor improvements right now, but I think it's wild that there's only three on the proposed list.

If you're going to ban weak cards that are rarely to never useful, I think there's got to be another dozen or so minors you can add to the list.

Things like Future Building Site, Facades Carving, Growing Farm of course have their niches, but I mean do they really have bigger niches than Forest Scientist, Blackberry Farmer? I'm pretty dubious. I think too many are confusing how weak the minors are, due to the fact you tend to play minors for "free" sometimes while taking start or growing, but you rarely get to just freely play an occ. That doesn't mean that many of these minors are less worthy of a ban though, they're just as bad and useless on average, you just have more chances to play them easily while doing other good things. You'd still much rather have other cards.

So basically my feedback is the minor list should certainly expand if you're going to implement this. I don't get why I'd want an option to ban weak cards and then still see a bunch of awful minors

[Acerbic]

Thanks for all the discussion. I just implemented the first version of this in accordance with Alex's final proposal.

I do think Ranior has a point and we could stand to lose a few more improvements, but this is just the first version of the banlist - it can easily be expanded in the future.

[cranesflyhigh]

Alex and I have discussed minors for a fair bit, but we wanted to be a bit conservative, given how many people were reluctant to ban more cards. Both Alex and me are a bit more banhappy, this was a consensus kind of reduction of the list with the motto of "occasionally useful in niche strategies” - which (as Alex said) applies to more minors than occupations. So I think I can speak for Alex too, that we totally agree with you, Ranior and Acerbic on the minor list being a bit small. I would be very happy to revisit this in the future, once we have had more experience playing with less garbage cards.

[alexwjb]

Thank you very much Acerbic for getting approval for this and implementing it, it's much appreciated!

Ranior: I agree with you. I'm going to give some thought to the minors soon and make a suggestion (and of course you/anyone is welcome to do the same!).

In case this isn't clear to anyone - this is a completely separate banlist to the strong cards banlist so, for example, makes no difference to current Arena settings. If gurus vote for it it might be part of future Arena seasons.

[torvaldur_makan]

I think the occupation list looks good.

I don't have the time to go through the minor improvements right now, but I think it's wild that there's only three on the proposed list.

If you're going to ban weak cards that are rarely to never useful, I think there's got to be another dozen or so minors you can add to the list.

Things like Future Building Site, Facades Carving, Growing Farm of course have their niches, but I mean do they really have bigger niches than Forest Scientist, Blackberry Farmer? I'm pretty dubious. I think too many are confusing how weak the minors are, due to the fact you tend to play minors for "free" sometimes while taking start or growing, but you rarely get to just freely play an occ. That doesn't mean that many of these minors are less worthy of a ban though, they're just as bad and useless on average, you just have more chances to play them easily while doing other good things. You'd still much rather have other cards.

So basically my feedback is the minor list should certainly expand if you're going to implement this. I don't get why I'd want an option to ban weak cards and then still see a bunch of awful minors

I completely agree.

Which is why I will quote myself

I think the most boring games is when you have no minors to play. A theme in the revised cards is that the minors have unreasonable requirements or cost, while providing little value or points. This is my list of minors I think needs banning:

Facades Carving (Req Wood in Supply ≥ Current Round. Cost 2C 1R.) A036
When you play this card, you can exchange any number of food for 1 bonus point each, up to the number of completed harvests.

Lifting Machine (Req 3 fields. Cost 1W.) A070
At the end of each round that does not end with a harvest, you can move 1 vegetable from one of your fields to your supply. (This is not considered a field phase.)

Agricultural Fertilizers (Req 1 Pasture.) A073
Each time after you turn at least 2 unused spaces into used spaces in one action, you get an additional "Sow" action.

Future Building Site (3VP. Play in Round 4 or Before.) B038
Until all other farmyard spaces are used, you cannot use spaces that are orthogonally adjacent to your house.

Digging Spade (Play in Round 7 or Later. Cost 1W.) B051
Each time you use a clay accumulation space, you also get a number of food equal to the number of wild boar in your farmyard.

Growing Farm (2VP. See Below for Req. Cost 2C 1R.) B052
You can only play this card if you have at least as many pasture spaces as the number of completed rounds. If you do, you get a number of food equal to the current round.

Elephantgrass Plant (Req 2 Occs. Cost 2C 1S.) C034
Immediately after each harvest, you can use this card to exchange exactly 1 reed for 1 bonus point.

Perennial Rye (Req 2 Occs.Cost 1F.) C084
Each round that does not end with a harvest, you can pay 1 grain to breed exactly 1 type of animal. (This is not considered a breeding phase.)

Brotherly Love (Cost 1F.) D024
As long as you have exactly 4 people, in the work phase of each round, you can place your third and fourth person immediately after one another, even on the same action space.

Rolling Pin (Req 1 Occ. Cost 1W.) D052
In the returning home phase of each round, if you have more clay than wood in your supply, you get 1 food.

[cranesflyhigh]

@torvaldur_makan We agree as well. The list presented was with banning the cards that do not adhere to the motto of "occasionally useful in niche strategies" - and minors are easier to play than occupations. The list is pretty conservative - I am very much hopeful that this is just a starting point to get more garbage out of the game, with the next batch being lots of minors.

[alexwjb]

Discussing with the community and again in collaboration with CranesFlyHigh, we have compiled a list of minors to make the weak card banlist more balanced between occs and minors.

As a starting point, we gathered minor improvements in the bottom 10% of minor improvements in power, which also have average draft position greater than 7 (where 8 means undrafted). We then went through and considered the cards that were left.

Our suggestions on top of the three that are already banned (Lifting Machine, Cattle Farm, Perennial Rye) are as follows:

Suggested additions to weak card banlist

A22 Telegram
A27 Oven Site
A63 Dutch Windmill
A73 Agricultural Fertilizers
A76 Cob
A084 Silage
B38 Future Building Site
B64 Mill Wheel
C034 Elephantgrass Plant
D23 Pioneering Spirit
D72 Stable Manure
D76 Social Benefits


Reasoning

A22 Telegram
The text on the card is very awkward and 2 food to a point is, in itself, weak.

A27 Oven Site
Getting both a Fireplace and a Cooking Hearth is very awkward and normally pointless. Even if you do meet the criteria, you have to have the extra resources and the ovens might already be gone.

A63 Dutch Windmill
The cost is extremely steep for just the points and the 3 food almost never procs, making it mostly just a super expensive point minor.

A73 Agricultural Fertilizers
It is awkward to play and actually use.

A76 Cob
This card is normally the wrong way round: grain is generally more valuable than clay. The circumstances in which this card is decent are way too narrow.

A084 Silage
Same problems as Perennial Rye, though at least a bit easier to play - not enough reason to keep it.

B38 Future Building Site
Sad to lose this card, but it is currently ruining games by being misunderstood. I’d want to keep it if the text on the card were changed - see https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=144697

B64 Mill Wheel
2 wood for a point is really bad value and the text on it is mostly blank.

C034 Elephantgrass Plant
A very expensive way to turn a scarce resource into points, and it still has to be played early enough to have enough harvests left for it to matter.

D23 Pioneering Spirit
This card is normally pure blank.

D72 Stable Manure
An awkward requirement (at most 1 occ) and a dubious ability. Normally either unplayed or bad.

D76 Social Benefits
Food and early reed is critical and the payoff is too low to justify it. The cost and the 1 occ max requirement generally means it dies in your hand.


Others to consider

A36 Facades Carving
This card has generated debate - many people have suggested it for banning but a couple have argued for it to stay. It’s very expensive and requires a lot of wood to be stockpiled to make sense, but can be 3-5 points which is a lot.

A47 Trellises and C47 Garden Claw
Very similar cards where you do fencing or sowing early and it is a wood for some food downstream. Even if awkward, the wood to food conversion can be decent in those strats.

A64 Barley Mill
Very, very expensive, but it can generate a fair amount of food in the strats it is supposed to work in.

D48 Civic Facade
The requirement for it can be somewhat awkward, but it is a clay for some trickles of food, which is sometimes okay.