How to pick player order?

[UltraNeil]

When I create a game with my same set of friends, it always puts us in the same turn order. This gets very tiresome, especially in games where the order of players really matters to interaction. How can I change the order of players or have it randomized? I tried changing the order of inviting but it didn't seem to make a difference.

[RobertBr]

Check with the specific forum. Most games randomise their player order, so this seems unlikely.

[euklid314]

When I create a game with my same set of friends, it always puts us in the same turn order. This gets very tiresome, especially in games where the order of players really matters to interaction. How can I change the order of players or have it randomized? I tried changing the order of inviting but it didn't seem to make a difference.

Can you be more precise. About how many games are you talking? If you want, tell us the game and your playing partners such that we can look into it.

If you are talking about 3-player games and you consider A-B-C, B-C-A, and C-A-B the same playing order (because B follows A, C follows B, A follows C) then there are only 2 playing orders. If they are chosen randomly you should expect long streaks of the same playing order. But if the playing order has not changed for, say, 20 games this changes the assessment.

Please note that if you play a rematch (there is a separate button after an game ends) the starting player changes but the playing order stays the same. After ABC you will have BCA or CAB. At least that is my state of knowledge.

[UltraNeil]

Check these games of Azul which all had the same turn order:

https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=637688392
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=637673226
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=637671135
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=636747964
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=628067811
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=622824511
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=613729701

These games had a different order:
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=614217541
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=637689543

Are we just that unlucky?

Does it matter how I create the game? Usually I do it by "Play Now" from the top bar and select the game, which creates a lobby with a wooden background, and this always or almost always results in the above order.

Recently I tried creating the game by going to the game's page and using that interface, in the last link, and it resulted in a different order. I don't remember what method I used for the other link of those two.

Here are some other games where BLoveBeLoved is the player after me. This happens far more often than I would expect from random chance.
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=628530826
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=624721897
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=623259196
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=623240518
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=522162415

[euklid314]

Check these games of Azul which all had the same turn order:

https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=637688392
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=637673226
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=637671135
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=636747964
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=628067811
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=622824511
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=613729701

These games had a different order:
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=614217541
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=637689543

Are we just that unlucky?

Does it matter how I create the game? Usually I do it by "Play Now" from the top bar and select the game, which creates a lobby with a wooden background, and this always or almost always results in the above order.

Recently I tried creating the game by going to the game's page and using that interface, in the last link, and it resulted in a different order. I don't remember what method I used for the other link of those two.

Here are some other games where BLoveBeLoved is the player after me. This happens far more often than I would expect from random chance.
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=628530826
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=624721897
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=623259196
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=623240518
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=522162415

You give 9 games of Azul. I assume you have not hand-picked them but they are all your games or at least the last 9 games with these players.

Since there are only 2 different playing orders it is easy to compute that there is a 49% chance that these playing orders appear in a ratio of 4:5 or 5:4.
Furtheremore, there is a 33% chance that the playing orders appear in a ratio of 3:6 or 6:3.
Consequentially, there is a 18% chance that the playing orders appear in a ratio of 2:7 or 7:2 or even more unevenly distributed. Your 7:2 ratio is not rare by any means.

Then you give 5 games of other games (Terraforming Mars, Kingdomino, A wonderful World) with BLoveBeLoved. You have played 10 games of Terraforming Mars and 5 games of Kingdomino with this player. Your gave games that were played within half a year. Are you absolutely sure that you played against BLoveBeLoved only these 5 given games within this timespan of 6 months? Or did you handpick the games (i.e. 5 games out of the last 6 or 5 games out of the last 7,...)?

Even if these 5 games are consecutive and not handpicked there is a 6.25% chance of all of them having the same playing order.

Summary: The playing order is determined randomly and you cannot influence this by different inviting of players (unless you choose a rematch which you did not). Your data is absolutely in accordance with this random assignment.

[edit]: After checking all the 5 Kingdomino games you played against BLoveBeLoved, only one of these 5 games BLoveBeLoved was the player after you. Thus you only included this single Kingdomino game in your list. It might have been the most recent game and the only game within this 6-month period, but why did you include this Kingdomino game in your list of 5 games when it was the exception out of the 5 Kingdomino games you could have chosen?

[UltraNeil]

I appreciate your detailed analysis.
I focused mainly on the Azul games as that's what the 3 of us play the most. They should be all our most recent Azul games. The other games I didn't pick very scientifically.

So you're saying that Azul randomizes the order and we just got "unlucky"?

[nik592]

More or less. Random chance does not imply an even distribution. If I flip a coin 10 times and get all heads, there is no increased probability that I will get tails on my next flip. Over LARGE samples, distribution will approach even, but we're talking pretty large. See here (https://math.stackexchange.com/question ... ng-very-cl) for one discussion about this - the math suggests 385 flips will give you a 95% chance of at least a 55/45 ratio. Two things are important there - for one, they're not looking at a perfect 50-50 ratio, one side is still likely to be ahead of the other. The other is that 5% of cases will STILL have a different distribution. All cases are still possible, including 100-0 (though very unlikely) - a one in a million chance (not having done the maths on how unlikely 100-0 would be) still happens to one person in every million.

This is why statistical models are complex, and when you're looking for statistical significance of a hypothesis, you can still only say your outcome probably isn't happening by chance. It's why scientific studies have to be repeated over and over to be considered reliable - one study on its own, even if it shows there's a 95% chance that what's happening isn't just random, doesn't prove that the hypothesis is true, just that it's statistically likely (or unlikely).

[euklid314]

So you're saying that Azul randomizes the order and we just got "unlucky"?

Yes.

[gmrsmrt]

.....

So you're saying that Azul randomizes the order and we just got "unlucky"?

Actually I gave a look at the games you pointed
and found the following turn orders

f u b
u b f
b f u
f u b
u b f
b f u
u b f

u f b
b u f

out of six possible outcomes:
one occurred three times
two occurred two times
two occurred one time
one occurred zero times
given the small number of plays I would say that they are very evenly distributed.
I guess you know, but don't get confused from the board, you will always be listed first even if you are not the first to play.

[Mathew5000]

Please note that if you play a rematch (there is a separate button after an game ends) the starting player changes but the playing order stays the same. After ABC you will have BCA or CAB. At least that is my state of knowledge.

So you're saying that Azul randomizes the order and we just got "unlucky"?

Yes.

My understanding is that if the same set of players plays the game again, whether or not the second game is initiated with the "rematch" button, the order of players will be the same in the second game other than rotating to a different starting player. This has been discussed several times on the forums, so when I read the OP's post saying that his games with friends always have the same order, I took it to mean "the same order but rotated so a different player starts". I was surprised to see other posts in this thread saying that playing order is random.

How can I change the order of players or have it randomized?

If I'm correct, then the answer to OP's question is to create a Swiss System tournament for the set of players, as described here: viewtopic.php?p=157427#p157427

Previous threads:

* viewtopic.php?t=13319 (January 2019; see especially the posts by sourisdudesert)

* viewtopic.php?t=18444 (November 2020; contains advice for developers)

* viewtopic.php?t=23311 (November 2021)

* viewtopic.php?t=33021 (October 2023)

* viewtopic.php?t=34239 (January 2024, proposing an improved player-order algorithm)

* viewtopic.php?t=39461 (November 2024)

Summary: as I understand it, the "default" on BGA, for non-Arena non-Tournament tables, is that when the same players play again, their order will be the same as last time but rotated to have a different starting player. That's the default but developers can choose a different approach for a particular game they've developed.