TM is not a best 2Players game :( (nt)

[primrose1234]

We clearly should discuss this as we never had any similar discussion. Especially the claim that 300 elo = 700 elo is really legit.

[HappyMeaI]

On the other note, you are extremely overrating ai, it's not even close to being one of the best cards

We clearly should discuss this as we never had any similar discussion. Especially the claim that 300 elo = 700 elo is really legit.

Says who? Zero shot a 300 could ever beat a 700!

[rambling_coherently]

2P format is the most luck-based. 3p is what everyone says the “sweet spot” is, but 4p is suppose to be what the developers have aimed to balance the game around the most.

The "everyone" in this case being who exactly? It's certainly not the most competitive/strongest players of online versions of Terraforming Mars, most of whom prefer 1v1.

You can even look at Arena, last season compared to the one before. 2P had significantly more activity, even when you adjust for games having 2 players, as opposed to 3.

OTB I'll happily play 3P/4P because anything is fun when playing OTB, obviously.

[Kulikk]

On the other note, you are extremely overrating ai, it's not even close to being one of the best cards

We clearly should discuss this as we never had any similar discussion. Especially the claim that 300 elo = 700 elo is really legit.

Says who? Zero shot a 300 could ever beat a 700!

AI is 54th card by win rate / option

[primrose1234]

You’re right. I didn’t mean to say it is most luck-based, but imbalanced. It’s a high variance card game where if one player in similar level to another gets AI Central or Mars U the game is already over 95% of the time, unless the player who gets AI makes a lot of blunders and the skill gap is huge. These cards are more balanced in 3p / 4p games. Ofc in 3p+ there are more variables affecting outcome, and you have the most control over the game in 2p. There’s nuance in 3p / 4p games as well. They don’t just play themselves.

Most of this is nonsense.

!

[Kulikk]

Well I mean if both players are just clueless and force engine regardless of the situation then tfm really is a coin toss and ai is the best card in the game

[Azoken]

AI is 54th card by win rate / option

It's quite a bold statement to make without context. Would you mind sharing a bit more about it ? Like a source ?

I would be interested to only take the winrate over the first 4 gen than mixing games where it is played on last gen.

[xspuipuke]

I think that the difference in elo required to win an arena speaks volumes about the skill ceiling difference between 2p and 3p against random opponents

Not to contest the point made (which I agree with), but last season wasn't truly random, though, as you yourself admitted to "sniping", i.e., choosing your opponents.

[Kulikk]

AI is 54th card by win rate / option

It's quite a bold statement to make without context. Would you mind sharing a bit more about it ? Like a source ?

I would be interested to only take the winrate over the first 4 gen than mixing games where it is played on last gen.

I've uploaded the stats in the thread on ai central on this forum, you can look it up. If for some reason the table is not showing let me know and I'll send it to you. It's data collected from steam based on games of >1900 elo players

[Kulikk]

I think that the difference in elo required to win an arena speaks volumes about the skill ceiling difference between 2p and 3p against random opponents

Not to contest the point made (which I agree with), but last season wasn't truly random, though, as you yourself admitted to "sniping", i.e., choosing your opponents.

Sniping has no effect on elo ceiling. You have the same probability of winning one game against a strong opponent and winning couple in a row against weaker opposition. Ofc it would be different if someone kept track of everyones average elo over, let's say, 50 games and targeted players above their assumed "real play strength" but it would be extremely tedious to do and I don't know anyone who'd done that. Frankly even if they did it's effect would be marginal or non existing at all. And in 3p games you can snipe people too, I'd even argue that it would be more effective in 3p than in 2p. If you think that in previous seasons nothing simillar or worse happened you are mistaken