Opinions on 3P Kingmaking

[ChesterDeBester]

I goes out of my ways to not to king make nor prince make in 3p. It’s the right thing to do and shows the mastery of the game by being aware of the game state.

In my opinion, anyone who argue that they are just maximizing their own score which resulting in king making is just being a jerk, especially if it involves arena rankings. Let's not forget, its against the site's policies to engage in any forms of king making.

To summarize, if the 3rd place is out of contention during the end game sequence, the right thing to do is to stay out of the way. And if the 1st place is obviously secured the win, he should not doing anything like place another greenery or fund an award that will affect the 2nd placement.

The problem is that 'staying out of the way' is a form of king-making. Look at the OP's first example - what if 1st place funded cultivator expecting the 2nd place guy to get 0 points from cultivator because 3rd place should place their greeneries and get 2nd place on the award. By not converting - you are screwing over 1st place who expected you to use your plants in the way the game intends.

You are literally forced to king-make in many scenarios.

Here's another scenario: you are obviously 3rd place and going to lose, Player1 (p1) has a fast terraforming setup that will win a short game, while Player 2 (p2) has an engine setup that needs an extra gen or two. Your hand has some random space events and you have Heat production you can use (but you will get 3rd regardless) - do you take oceans/heat TR and shorten the game? Do you just pass and do nothing? Whatever you choose - you are king-making. Being passive and not getting involved is a choice in itself that benefits one player over the other usually.

I am so glad you, as one of our highest ranking players shares this view and articulates it properly. As one of the main moderators of the "*" Discord I also used this logic to calm down kingmaking squabbles. Your logic is 100% correct. If you take out all the emotions and "but I wanted to win and this harmed therefore it's mean" and subsequently just map it out with some logic gates, this is where you end up.

*Moderator edit: please do not specifically name other gaming platforms

[RoyalRook]

I goes out of my ways to not to king make nor prince make in 3p. It’s the right thing to do and shows the mastery of the game by being aware of the game state.

In my opinion, anyone who argue that they are just maximizing their own score which resulting in king making is just being a jerk, especially if it involves arena rankings. Let's not forget, its against the site's policies to engage in any forms of king making.

To summarize, if the 3rd place is out of contention during the end game sequence, the right thing to do is to stay out of the way. And if the 1st place is obviously secured the win, he should not doing anything like place another greenery or fund an award that will affect the 2nd placement.

The problem is that 'staying out of the way' is a form of king-making. Look at the OP's first example - what if 1st place funded cultivator expecting the 2nd place guy to get 0 points from cultivator because 3rd place should place their greeneries and get 2nd place on the award. By not converting - you are screwing over 1st place who expected you to use your plants in the way the game intends.

You are literally forced to king-make in many scenarios.

Here's another scenario: you are obviously 3rd place and going to lose, Player1 (p1) has a fast terraforming setup that will win a short game, while Player 2 (p2) has an engine setup that needs an extra gen or two. Your hand has some random space events and you have Heat production you can use (but you will get 3rd regardless) - do you take oceans/heat TR and shorten the game? Do you just pass and do nothing? Whatever you choose - you are king-making. Being passive and not getting involved is a choice in itself that benefits one player over the other usually.

I am so glad you, as one of our highest ranking players shares this view and articulates it properly. As one of the main moderators of the "*" Discord I also used this logic to calm down kingmaking squabbles. Your logic is 100% correct. If you take out all the emotions and "but I wanted to win and this harmed therefore it's mean" and subsequently just map it out with some logic gates, this is where you end up.

I am glad you make your take clear as a moderator of the WebApp, because it makes zero sense. Bogey has very limited top level 3p experience, he is mainly 2p. If you ask any of the top competitors during the 3p arena season they would tell you this take is wrong. First of all, his take is pointless, why? Because only the end game sequence counts. Does the 3rd player ends the game? If yes, then he is potentially king making, if not then he is just going through his own game. So in this scenario, the 3rd should not try to end the game. Come on you are a board gamer, you know what end game means right?

P.S. let's be COMPLETELY clear, just in case THE PEOPLE doesnn't understand what you are actually saying. Ok...so you both are saying is that, if the 3rd has no chance of winning in Bogey's scenario but have extra cash and heats, he is NOT king making by pumping heats and SP greeneries and/or oceans to help end the game. That shows zero undertanding of how 3p arena works to me.

Let's dive in more, if the 3rd SP oceans or playing his ocean cards with all available cash after 1st has claimed 2 MS and 8MC Award while carrying artic algae and helped to trigger the end game that's not king making? Oh, he is just maximizing his own score right?

To keeping your fashion of name dropping, I won season 18 and sit at the top of the ranking multiple times for every single 3p arena season here. If not because of time constraints which lead to quit live games and low game counts, very easily could be rank 1 within 10 to 20 days whenever.

[Agbisweird]

I love the opinions and thoughts put forth on this thread by Bogeyun and Chester (Bas?). I agree with their takes and what they posted. *. To each their own.


*moderator reminder to be kind and constructive

[ChesterDeBester]

The problem is that 'staying out of the way' is a form of king-making. Look at the OP's first example - what if 1st place funded cultivator expecting the 2nd place guy to get 0 points from cultivator because 3rd place should place their greeneries and get 2nd place on the award. By not converting - you are screwing over 1st place who expected you to use your plants in the way the game intends.

You are literally forced to king-make in many scenarios.

Here's another scenario: you are obviously 3rd place and going to lose, Player1 (p1) has a fast terraforming setup that will win a short game, while Player 2 (p2) has an engine setup that needs an extra gen or two. Your hand has some random space events and you have Heat production you can use (but you will get 3rd regardless) - do you take oceans/heat TR and shorten the game? Do you just pass and do nothing? Whatever you choose - you are king-making. Being passive and not getting involved is a choice in itself that benefits one player over the other usually.

I am so glad you, as one of our highest ranking players shares this view and articulates it properly. As one of the main moderators of the "*" Discord I also used this logic to calm down kingmaking squabbles. Your logic is 100% correct. If you take out all the emotions and "but I wanted to win and this harmed therefore it's mean" and subsequently just map it out with some logic gates, this is where you end up.

I am glad you make your take clear as a moderator of the WebApp, because it makes zero sense. Bogey has very limited top level 3p experience, he is mainly 2p. If you ask any of the top competitors during the 3p arena season they would tell you this take is wrong. First of all, his take is pointless, why? Because only the end game sequence counts. Does the 3rd player ends the game? If yes, then he is potentially king making, if not then he is just going through his own game. So in this scenario, the 3rd should not try to end the game. Come on you are a board gamer, you know what end game means right?

P.S. let's be COMPLETELY clear, just in case THE PEOPLE doesnn't understand what you are actually saying. Ok...so you both are saying is that, if the 3rd has no chance of winning in Bogey's scenario but have extra cash and heats, he is NOT king making by pumping heats and SP greeneries and/or oceans to help end the game. That shows zero undertanding of how 3p arena works to me.

Let's dive in more, if the 3rd SP oceans or playing his ocean cards with all available cash after 1st has claimed 2 MS and 8MC Award while carrying artic algae and helped to trigger the end game that's not king making? Oh, he is just maximizing his own score right?

To keeping your fashion of name dropping, I won season 18 and sit at the top of the ranking multiple times for every single 3p arena season here. If not because of time constraints which lead to quit live games and low game counts, very easily could be rank 1 within 10 to 20 days whenever.

That's a horrible misrepresentation of the argument and I'd urge you to re-read earlier posts.

[RoyalRook]

How so? I listed out my reasons, what's your counter? I am quoting your own post.

[primrose1234]

You claim to be high ELO and easily rank1, but when you played several 1v1 vs Corvus Mortis, you barely stood a chance. Your so-called high ELO claims just dont fit to the gameplay, therefore your try to proof by authority doesnt work.

Also you cannot do nothing then even by doing nothing you do something. This might be a philosophic thing, I suggest you get into it. Same as "you cannot not communicate". If you think you can solve communication problems by not communicating at all, you won't fix communication problems. You also dont fix kingmaking by hitting the pass button.

[FrankJones]

You claim to be high ELO and easily rank1, but when you played several 1v1 vs Corvus Mortis, you barely stood a chance. Your so-called high ELO claims just dont fit to the gameplay, therefore your try to proof by authority doesnt work.

Also you cannot do nothing then even by doing nothing you do something. This might be a philosophic thing, I suggest you get into it. Same as "you cannot not communicate". If you think you can solve communication problems by not communicating at all, you won't fix communication problems. You also dont fix kingmaking by hitting the pass button.

Exactly.

Look, in a 3-player game, players should play for and plan around what the opponents are doing. Assume the other players are going to continue playing and not just click "auto-pass" for the remainder of the game. It's a weak argument to say, "The 3rd place player engaged in kingmaking by using his plants and heat and money to continue playing the game instead of just sitting out."

[Kulikk]

I'll drop 2 cents from my pov as someone who competed in the OTML 3p tournaments back in the days with decent success.

In pricipio I agree with Stranded Knight that in these "impossible" end game scenarios the best etiquette would be to maximize your own scoring, othwerwise games tend to fall into a somewhat predictible pattern where strongest and weakest player both "target" second player since he is their direct competition. I think that this behaviour is to be expected and shouldn't be viewed as kingmaking since in the 3rd player's best interest is doing everything to catch 2 player.

3p arena format has another issue which makes it unplayable for me personally - due to really wide skill gap between players in the lobby games are way more random than they should be, basically you cannot trust anyone to do even the most obvious plays, mainly cutting cards in draft. However, poeple i don't think that people who take dust seals passing tg to guy going full jovs are necessarily kingmaking, they are just clueless.

[ChesterDeBester]

You claim to be high ELO and easily rank1, but when you played several 1v1 vs Corvus Mortis, you barely stood a chance. Your so-called high ELO claims just dont fit to the gameplay, therefore your try to proof by authority doesnt work.

Also you cannot do nothing then even by doing nothing you do something. This might be a philosophic thing, I suggest you get into it. Same as "you cannot not communicate". If you think you can solve communication problems by not communicating at all, you won't fix communication problems. You also dont fix kingmaking by hitting the pass button.

Couldn't agree more.

[RoyalRook]

I'll drop 2 cents from my pov as someone who competed in the OTML 3p tournaments back in the days with decent success.

In pricipio I agree with Stranded Knight that in these "impossible" end game scenarios the best etiquette would be to maximize your own scoring, othwerwise games tend to fall into a somewhat predictible pattern where strongest and weakest player both "target" second player since he is their direct competition. I think that this behaviour is to be expected and shouldn't be viewed as kingmaking since in the 3rd player's best interest is doing everything to catch 2 player.

3p arena format has another issue which makes it unplayable for me personally - due to really wide skill gap between players in the lobby games are way more random than they should be, basically you cannot trust anyone to do even the most obvious plays, mainly cutting cards in draft. However, poeple i don't think that people who take dust seals passing tg to guy going full jovs are necessarily kingmaking, they are just clueless.

Hi, thank you for participating in the 3p arena as well, you were one of the first ones that coming from our steam community to participating in 3p arena and we had some fire matches. OTML 3p and other discord tourney were fantastic, and I had ton of funs since it was the only way to compete with other top players in none 2p matches.

That's been said, I have to confess that your take and my earlier BGA 3p arena views are the same. But once I break through certain skill points from season 17, I found out that those views were not sufficient. You can also tell from the consistent top ranked 3p arena participants that the BGA 3p arena settings though flawed are in fact viable for competition at the highest level. Corbz, me, Leo and potatos in the end had no issue with the match making format. Why? I talked about this in depths in other threads: essentially you have to play differently against different elo level players, cards that are traditionally top ranked may not work out especially in 3p. I think you gave up too early in your 3p season after a losing streak, I think you just missed out the skill plateau, you were right there, respectfully.

Back to your main point, I am not saying 3rd have to pass if he has a chance to gain 2nd placement, that's perfectly fine and how you should be playing. I AM saying if the 3rd place in a 3p match had no chance for 2nd placement during the end game sequence and pushed for end game, then he is king making, maximizing his own score is just an excuse.

You claim to be high ELO and easily rank1, but when you played several 1v1 vs Corvus Mortis, you barely stood a chance. Your so-called high ELO claims just dont fit to the gameplay, therefore your try to proof by authority doesnt work.

Our matches were amazing, we both played on all the new maps, I could have done better but I don't know much about the newest ones, I learnt alot especially the importance of the lava zone controls which I tried to play around but that wasn't the right call. On the other hand I showed him the south on Hellas could be way better than north. Great times, I don't consider many players that can match up to me besides anthracite, he work harder and spent way more time than me in TM(more than anyone in the world I am pretty sure of that), he deserved the map advantage.