Can we stop conceding with one move to go?

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FrankJones
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Re: Can we stop conceding with one move to go?

Post by FrankJones »

Archisian wrote: 15 December 2025, 02:54
I'm not sure about other games, but I pretty much only play Wingspan.
So, is it at least possible that many of the literally 1000+ other games have more useful stats than wingspan?

Also, you later said that you don't see much value in seeing the stats after a game. Does that mean that no one else could or should? Does that mean the collective stats gathered across thousands of games have no value? There have been some very helpful Wingspan strategy posts in various forums which utilized the collective end-game stats, using information that would not exist if everyone conceded at the final move because they didn't feel like spending another 30-60 seconds finishing the game.

And, yes, it would be rather tedious to calculate the Wingspan stats manually, and frustrating since it's unnecessary if the other person would just kindly complete the final move, which I don't think is asking too much.

Did you take me up on my offer to review one of my game replays of "Earth" and view the end game stats? I would be curious as to how long you think it would take to obtain that same data manually by reviewing the game.
FrankJones
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Re: Can we stop conceding with one move to go?

Post by FrankJones »

AKuras wrote: 15 December 2025, 12:54 You guys have to much time on your hands to discuss this thing so deeply. Not everybody has this much time. Hence we concede.
I have already addressed the time argument.

In one case, the act of pressing the concede button took more time than it would have to just let the game end, since the opponent had no more moves to make and could have literally walked away from the computer and the game would have ended in 20 seconds.

In another, it was a turn-based game, and thus the need or desire to queue up another game was a non-factor.

It's frustrating when the same points are repeatedly made and ignored.

Someone else said "what if there was an emergency?"

Well, given that it seems to be specific players that concede on a semi-regular basis right at the end of games, I find this rather implausible. I mean, is the person an EMT playing board games on a cell phone in the back of the ambulance? And the emergencies only arise right at the end of the game, and only when a loss is imminent?

Come on, seriously?
TheClaudeQC
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Re: Can we stop conceding with one move to go?

Post by TheClaudeQC »

tbhp wrote: 12 December 2025, 05:32
Archisian wrote: 12 December 2025, 05:23 Since I can possible misunderstand your point, correct me if I'm wrong. But you are saying that you think it's better for the other player just to leave the game instead of conceding?
Well, it's better as long as they end up coming back at some point, finishing the game normally. If they never come back, then that forces the other player to kick them out or wait until the game reaches its maximum duration, which would still lead to the same problem of ending up with a conceded win rather than a "real" win.

The post was more so trying to understand the mentality of people who concede. If you don't want to waste time waiting for the other player to make their move, why not just go back to the game at a later point (when the site warns you that it's your turn to play) instead of conceding?
actually, there is better to concede for the player, as kicking them out remove karma level (-10 [-4 in tournaments][-20 in normal recedives]), which might penalize the player in replayabilities in BGA as a whole.
TheClaudeQC
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Re: Can we stop conceding with one move to go?

Post by TheClaudeQC »

nik592 wrote: 15 December 2025, 10:21 The player that conceded in the game FrankJones is specifically referencing had no more moves to make. They could have left without any kind of penalty.
Leaving a game would not only give him a lost as usual, but also a karma penality. Which could hurt potential new games running for the player. So it would had been worst for the player than to conceed
nik592 wrote: 15 December 2025, 10:21 OK, you can maybe argue it would have been an additional minute (give or take) before they could queue for another real-time game, but I really can't see how you can argue that that kind of behaviour (conceding after your final moves are played) is reasonable. Your provided reasoning doesn't hold up. The only excuse that does is the kind of impatience that says I need another RT game NOW and not in a minute when this one ends. And I can't see how that can be viewed as anything but selfish reasoning (if your time is that tight that one minute will affect if you get to play another game or not, I'm not sure you should be queuing at all).
An excuse for what!? Humans have limited time to enjoy games. And maybe that minute could change between being late or not at work or sleep.

And most time, competitive chess has conceeding at final moves as the high end players does know they are in a "mate in x" so instead of wasting time for their moves... they could save few seconds that can stack up quickly if the play in a full tournament.
FrankJones
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Re: Can we stop conceding with one move to go?

Post by FrankJones »

TheClaudeQC wrote: 15 December 2025, 16:53
nik592 wrote: 15 December 2025, 10:21 The player that conceded in the game FrankJones is specifically referencing had no more moves to make. They could have left without any kind of penalty.
Leaving a game would not only give him a lost as usual, but also a karma penality. Which could hurt potential new games running for the player. So it would had been worst for the player than to conceed

What nik592 was saying is, the opponent in my game had no more moves to make and could have physically left the computer to grab a beverage or use the restroom or whatever, and the game would have ended naturally in the next minute without any further action from that opponent
FrankJones
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Re: Can we stop conceding with one move to go?

Post by FrankJones »

TheClaudeQC wrote: 15 December 2025, 16:53

And most time, competitive chess has conceeding at final moves as the high end players does know they are in a "mate in x" so instead of wasting time for their moves... they could save few seconds that can stack up quickly if the play in a full tournament.
The (inadequate) chess analogy has been discussed ad nauseam. What is the point of repeating this statement about chess while ignoring the numerous responses that have already been made with regard to the difference in expected etiquette between chess and a thematic strategy game? And the differences between the effect of a concession in chess compared to a concession in a different type of game?
FrankJones
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Re: Can we stop conceding with one move to go?

Post by FrankJones »

I’ll preface this with a caveat that I will be making subjective statements.

A good way to analyze behavioral expectations and intent is to examine what is typically done, what is typically expected, what the perceptions and effects of these actions are, and the reasons given for such actions.

Chess:

It is well-understood and agreed upon and accepted that conceding in the face of imminent checkmate (or perhaps insurmountable material disadvantage) is:
1) Polite and gracious
2) An acknowledgement of a game well played by the opponent
3) Commonplace in most or nearly all situations in which a concession is applicable.

There is no significant loss of information when a concession is made. Someone mentioned that BGA does keep stats for chess, but the stats mentioned are not any I have ever seen or heard referenced in many years of playing and studying chess. There is no loss of end-game scoring information, because chess does not have point-scoring from a variety of sources. There are no cards. There is no scenario in which someone would be wondering whether a specific play or sequence of plays generated the expected number of points.

That being said, if a player conceded, and the winning player doesn’t see the imminent checkmate, would it be unreasonable to ask, “can we play this out? I don’t see what you’re seeing, and I would appreciate the practice finishing a mate sequence”. Or, “I realize I am way ahead in material, but I struggle at end-game sometimes by creating a stalemate situation. Can we play on so I can gain additional experience and practice?”

Obviously, the opponent could refuse and just say, “No. I cannot win, and I have no desire to waste any more time.” I can’t foresee that happening in a “real-life” setting, and if it did, those two players might not be playing any more games together in the future.



Other games, especially thematic strategy games involving cards and multiple scoring categories:

Simply based on how often one decision occurs versus the other, it seems by convention and societal agreement (not universal agreement, but a significant majority) that conceding right at the end is not appropriate, and is not perceived as gracious and congratulatory the way it is in chess. The very fact that few people do this, combined with the high number of people expressing legitimate reasons for wishing the end-game position and scoring and statistics to be shown, indicates that such a behavior is, at minimum, questionable, and can easily be perceived as lacking in sportsmanship or consideration for others.

It is not unreasonable for someone who has spent significant time and energy playing a game to wish to see the final situation, score, and statistics when the game is just about over anyway. Lengthy explanations have been given for the various valuable information that is lost when the game is conceded right at the end rather than finished naturally.

In a “real-life” game, refusing to finish a game at the end-stage would not be well-received, and would undoubtedly come across as poor sportsmanship. Doing this online negates some of the great benefits of a site like BGA that automates the scoring, offers statistics, and displays the end-game state in a manner that allows any players (including those not in the game but viewing the replay) to gain useful information.

BGA in general seems to encourage playing games to completion, and sems to encourage study and review of games (hence the open profiles and open access to the played games of any player). BGA is unique among any gaming sites I have utilized in this regard. The options to review and study and learn, and view valuable statistics, is not a combination I have encountered elsewhere.

If everyone conceded at the end, all this valuable information would be lost, and for what?

The two most common reasons given have been:
1) “One minute of my time is more important than [any number of perceived benefits to finishing the game].”
2) “I don’t want to see how badly I got beaten by, and I think it is ego-stroking by my opponent to wish to see that same information.”

Except: It is not ego-stroking. The reasons for wishing to see this information are numerous and have been stated numerous times. And, the losing player can still complete the game and “not see how badly I lost by” by simply closing the screen once it starts to roll the end-game credits, so to speak.

The time argument in number 1 is questionable. Are people really truly in a situation in which they desperately need those one or two minutes for something else? And conveniently enough, it only happens when they are about to lose a game, and not when they are about to win a game? And, they needed exactly that one or two minutes – not 5 or 10 minutes, in which case they could have conceded earlier and saved everyone more time if the end result was going to be a conceded game anyway with no end-game position or stats or soring? That’s really straining credibility.

And what sort of society would we have if everyone adopted the approach of “One minute of my time is more important than [anything or anyone else]”? We don’t need to wonder, because we have all seen it. This attitude and behavior leads to arguments, fights, ill-feelings, and a general dysfunction of society.
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tbhp
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Re: Can we stop conceding with one move to go?

Post by tbhp »

TheClaudeQC wrote: 15 December 2025, 16:38
tbhp wrote: 12 December 2025, 05:32
Archisian wrote: 12 December 2025, 05:23 Since I can possible misunderstand your point, correct me if I'm wrong. But you are saying that you think it's better for the other player just to leave the game instead of conceding?
Well, it's better as long as they end up coming back at some point, finishing the game normally. If they never come back, then that forces the other player to kick them out or wait until the game reaches its maximum duration, which would still lead to the same problem of ending up with a conceded win rather than a "real" win.

The post was more so trying to understand the mentality of people who concede. If you don't want to waste time waiting for the other player to make their move, why not just go back to the game at a later point (when the site warns you that it's your turn to play) instead of conceding?
actually, there is better to concede for the player, as kicking them out remove karma level (-10 [-4 in tournaments][-20 in normal recedives]), which might penalize the player in replayabilities in BGA as a whole.
That's just how the karma system works. Are you saying you take issue with that? If someone can't manage to play games in time, then it's normal they'd be punished rather than their opponent. Why should the player who is both losing and taking too much time be the one who benefits from the situation, while their opponent who did nothing wrong ends up with a frustrating conceded win? This seems totally backwards.

If you aren't sure you're gonna finish on time a game you are going to lose, you should accept that you may get kicked out while you are away. You shouldn't use the conceding feature as a way to "get out" of the situation. Because now your opponent is the one who has to suffer because of your own issues. That's only thinking about yourself.

The whole reason the reputation system exists is to push people to play as much as they can, so that the vast majority of games can get finished normally. The more games completed, the better. But by choosing to concede instead, you are kind of breaking the system, because you are avoiding the punishment you should get for not finishing games, when the effect of your action is essentially the same as if you got kicked out. You conceded, and the game wasn't able to be finished normally. It seems like a paradox why the option even exists in the first place.
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Archisian
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Re: Can we stop conceding with one move to go?

Post by Archisian »

nik592 wrote: 15 December 2025, 10:21
Personally, I like to see where I got my points (especially in a game I didn't win), and where the winner got their points. Yes, some games come down to luck - yes, sometimes I play Wingspan and I draw crappy cards that don't work no matter how I play them. Although I've had this debate with my partner on Terraforming Mars - he can almost always beat me at that game. And I say, I had terrible cards this game, how come you never get a game with terrible cards? Somehow he knows how to play the cards he's dealt, whereas I seem to struggle with certain strategies. So I don't think it's all down to luck, and there are things I can learn from looking at how another player scored their points. Even in a game I won, it's useful to see, oh, I was focusing on this strategy and that seemed to work well for me. It's not essential, and obviously it's not something everyone gets benefit from, but some do.

The player that conceded in the game FrankJones is specifically referencing had no more moves to make. They could have left without any kind of penalty. The only impact is that the game becomes a concession without final scoring and stats. OK, you can maybe argue it would have been an additional minute (give or take) before they could queue for another real-time game, but I really can't see how you can argue that that kind of behaviour (conceding after your final moves are played) is reasonable. Your provided reasoning doesn't hold up. The only excuse that does is the kind of impatience that says I need another RT game NOW and not in a minute when this one ends. And I can't see how that can be viewed as anything but selfish reasoning (if your time is that tight that one minute will affect if you get to play another game or not, I'm not sure you should be queuing at all).
And that's fine. If you find the stats useful, there's no problem with that. But if someone else doesn't value the stats as you do, then why must they be forced to continue the game for the sake the of the one that does value it? What good reason does the one who doesn't value the stats have in this situation, outside of it being considered good manners? Again, it seems to be a difference of values, which there is nothing wrong with that. The issue is that some people want to disable the concede button entirely, forcing people to keep playing a game they don't want to continue playing. I don't see how this difference of values is a good reason to make such a drastic action.

I don't know about FrankJones' particular game, but if the player actually said that to them, then I won't dispute it because there isn't a chat log for me to check. But, correct me if I'm wrong, just leaving the game does have a karma penalty, right? Like -10 or -20 karma? That could have a potential impact on that player joining in future games. That's a different topic, but that's one mechanism for deterring people from just leaving games. There is also the red thumb system. I'm sure Mr. Jones red thumbed this individual, impacting their karma and flagging their account. Regardless, even if it was in total spite to Mr. Jones, I still don't believe that's a good reason to make a universal rule that applies to everyone. Unless the player states that it was their intent or other evidence, nobody actually knows what the intent was. Intent isn't proved by what someone thinks it might have been. You need actual evidence to demonstrate that person's intent. Saying "I can't see how..." isn't a valid argument to make. It's an argument from incredulity.
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Archisian
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Re: Can we stop conceding with one move to go?

Post by Archisian »

FrankJones wrote: 15 December 2025, 15:10
Archisian wrote: 15 December 2025, 02:54
I'm not sure about other games, but I pretty much only play Wingspan.
So, is it at least possible that many of the literally 1000+ other games have more useful stats than wingspan?

Also, you later said that you don't see much value in seeing the stats after a game. Does that mean that no one else could or should? Does that mean the collective stats gathered across thousands of games have no value? There have been some very helpful Wingspan strategy posts in various forums which utilized the collective end-game stats, using information that would not exist if everyone conceded at the final move because they didn't feel like spending another 30-60 seconds finishing the game.

And, yes, it would be rather tedious to calculate the Wingspan stats manually, and frustrating since it's unnecessary if the other person would just kindly complete the final move, which I don't think is asking too much.

Did you take me up on my offer to review one of my game replays of "Earth" and view the end game stats? I would be curious as to how long you think it would take to obtain that same data manually by reviewing the game.
Yes, I don't dispute that. The issue is creating a universal rule of forcing all players to play a game to it's natural completion. I don't think you are making that point, but others in this thread and in the suggestion page have. I don't disagree that there are people who find value in the end game stats. My question is why are the values of those people preferred when creating a universal rule for everyone.

It's back to the earlier point then: it's a matter of convenience and what you perceive to be good manners. All well and good and I could even agree with you on that. It all comes back to whether these are good reasons to totally disable the concession button. I just don't see how a difference of values and individual perceptions of civility are good reasons to do that.

I'll check out one of your games of "Earth". I'll need to research the game because I don't know much about it. But once I do, I'll get back to you.
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