Overall XP declines?

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tbhp
Posts: 879
Joined: 16 April 2025, 00:35

Re: Overall XP declines?

Post by tbhp »

RazorOz wrote: 07 September 2026, 22:50
tbhp wrote: 07 September 2026, 21:45 But you're not actually playing, that's just a zombie mode. I didn't say it's not possible to code, I said it wouldn't be allowed to have players keep playing a game that has effectively become a different version of what the creator intended. It wouldn't even be legal.
What are you even talking about? It would perfectly legal, given games apps all have something for this effect too. You really think it makes it illegal to make a game count for ELO or not, like come on. For all intents and purposes it's still a 4 player game, just there's only 3 players left playing it.
What. I'm saying it wouldn't be legal to allow players to play different versions of the game. The site has author's rights to respect. They can't make you play on a wrong size map anymore than they can invent a card that doesn't exist.

What games apps are you talking about?
FrankJones
Posts: 2609
Joined: 30 June 2024, 00:24

Re: Overall XP declines?

Post by FrankJones »

RazorOz wrote: 07 September 2026, 22:50
tbhp wrote: 07 September 2026, 21:45 But you're not actually playing, that's just a zombie mode. I didn't say it's not possible to code, I said it wouldn't be allowed to have players keep playing a game that has effectively become a different version of what the creator intended. It wouldn't even be legal.
What are you even talking about? It would perfectly legal, given games apps all have something for this effect too. You really think it makes it illegal to make a game count for ELO or not, like come on. For all intents and purposes it's still a 4 player game, just there's only 3 players left playing it.
It could be affecting the game in a manner the game designers did not intend.

For example: In Terraforming Mars, yes, it's legal to just pass and do nothing. But most Terraforming Mars players recognize that in a 3-player game, playing onward after one player quits would result in one of the 2 remaining essentially players having the 1st-player disc 2/3 of the time.
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tbhp
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Re: Overall XP declines?

Post by tbhp »

FrankJones wrote: 07 September 2026, 23:15 It could be affecting the game in a manner the game designers did not intend.
My argument is not about how whether it affects the gameplay, but the general principle that you can't just rewrite a game. This includes everything about the game, not just its gameplay aspects.

If someone creates a Chess site and they decide to call the Knight the Bishop and the Bishop the Knight, that doesn't change anything about the gameplay, the roles are just reversed, but it's not the official version of Chess anymore.
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nik592
Posts: 1425
Joined: 16 October 2022, 13:54

Re: Overall XP declines?

Post by nik592 »

FrankJones wrote: 07 September 2026, 23:15 It could be affecting the game in a manner the game designers did not intend.

For example: In Terraforming Mars, yes, it's legal to just pass and do nothing. But most Terraforming Mars players recognize that in a 3-player game, playing onward after one player quits would result in one of the 2 remaining essentially players having the 1st-player disc 2/3 of the time.
Exactly. I personally don't see a state where a player passes every turn (whether done by an absent zombie player or a present non-caring player) as a legitimate game either. I'd rather stop playing if my opponent is so determined to be checked out of a game, and I have and will red thumb any opponent who starts playing nonsense moves at a table I'm at. Where it's a game where card counts or board size/spaces vary, yes, you can still play, but I've also played those games IRL and realised, oh, that's why the game felt dissatisfying, because we played it wrong.

While I agree that the ranking based on remaining time isn't a great solution either, I can accept that a lot better than ranking by account age. Generally I think the time-based ranking is designed to eliminate the player who caused the slow down and the table to hit max time (which is probably somewhat fair, and I say that as someone who times out a LOT on tournament tables, but rarely on non-tournament tables). Where it gets tricky is multi-player elimination. And the way I see that is that random elimination through no fault of your own is a risk in multi-player elimination tournaments - if I play them, I accept that risk.

But look, whether or not I agree and would enjoy playing against a zombie player isn't a reason not to implement that as an option - if I don't like the idea, then I don't play in tournaments where it's implemented. So long as it's optional (my understanding was that for Heat and Formula D, it's not optional, it just is the way it works? But not playing those tournaments, I'm not sure).

As to only being able to name a handful of games where player count matters? Well, I spent a few minutes thinking about it, and while I have a vague idea of gameplay across the probably thousands of games I've tried (some moreso than others), I don't typically memorise variable player setups because the rulebook is there to guide me through that part. And as I say, on BGA, even less effort, since BGA does the variable setup for me. My gut feeling is that variable player setup exists in more games than it doesn't. And even where it's not necessarily an issue (eg. I don't think Terraforming Mars has any change to setup for different players), as noted above, a player passing every turn does impact balance, there's no getting around that.
FrankJones
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Joined: 30 June 2024, 00:24

Re: Overall XP declines?

Post by FrankJones »

Of the 9 games I play that could be 3+ players, in all 9 of them having a player drop out and just be "skipped" would significantly affect the outcome of the game from that point forward.

Yes, that's only 9 games, but I doubt my subset of games differs so dramatically from the general setup of games that would cause these games to be abnormal in this regard.

And, if I add in the physical games I have on my shelf but that I do no yet have here, the number would be much higher than 9, and the percentage of those games that wouldn't function with n absent player would still be close to 100%. Possibly 100% exactly.

So, taking games on a case-by-case basis makes the most sense. I'm just wondering how many multi-player games DO function adequately with an absent player.
Ceaseless
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Joined: 12 November 2022, 17:06

Re: Overall XP declines?

Post by Ceaseless »

ChiefPointThief wrote: 07 September 2026, 16:54 I already said it would be a problem in team games but I would argue if my is fine for bang. Bang is an elimination game in which ppl will die one by one anyway. Them dying from being shot or from timing out of the game is the same result.
Bang is a team game, having a team member drop is a major blow, even losing the renegade, meant to be a balancing factor for the groups, is going to cause headaches for team balance. A player leaving is not the same as being eliminated, killing off a player requires resources, even if they weren't doing anything. The deputy leaving to avoid death by the sheriff, or the outlaws leaving to avoid whoever killed them getting the cards, would also be noteworthy. There are probably other tricks one can pull. Someone suspecting Kit is rigging Dynamite on them, so they'd resign to have the set up hit the player after them, for instance.
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