Who should win here?

[Distracted_bison]

The 10 activated 15's ability leading to 2 win conditions at the same time.

EDIT: Have you encountered other special situations? Post them here.

[rancheros]

If it was up to me, it should either be a tie or the person with more signets should win.

[Nido2007]

First to say - What a Situation

I would prefer a tie as the best solution for both players.

But who won it actually?

[Distracted_bison]

First to say - What a Situation

I would prefer a tie as the best solution for both players.

But who won it actually?

Top player won. Tie seems reasonable, yeah.

[rancheros]

I’m guessing the logic is because the top player triggered their 15 first. Tie would be the most fair, but I still think that 10 player should be rewarded. I think it negating both and they keep playing would be my ideal outcome as long as they keep their tokens on the 15.

[jeezaam]

Funnily, I spoke with Mathieu yesterday about this exact situation on the SPIEL and ask him who would win. He said the 15 who was played first wins the game.

[truewired]

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/379568 ... ription-in

Well he clarified things on that topic

Though as i said on my topic about 15 Mechanical Djinn here : https://boardgamearena.com/forum/postin ... t&p=273170 , technically this a errata of the "End of the game" section of the rulebook, as until now nothing suggested that 15 Mechanical Djinn could trigger in phase 1 due to the lack of the word immediately, also implying that effects that make you win are all immediate as well (unless a card specificically says otherwise in the future for example) .

Only win conditions in phase 2 were specificially mentioned as a possible way to win in phase 2 *** , unless specified otherwise like for Founder's day and its word "immediately" (and if phase 2 happens, then the losing card immediately triggers its ability (and every other consequences to the fullest extent as per the rules), happening at the same time as the Mechanical Djinn (which is how it used to correctly work on BGA as there wasn't any reason to code in Mechanical Djinn winning in phase 1 and therefore making it so that phase 2 never happen since it's litterally something that isn't written in the official rules, not even in the latest rulebook from Tide & Storm))

also Jeezam in this situation, the player that won with 14 would win, as the 10 never gets a chance to trigger the Mechanical Djinn to begin with as 14 wins its encounter , immediately winning the game due to Mechanical Djinn's effect (phase 2 doesn't happen.), but it's interesting that he told you about yet another unwritten rule in the game , which is that that the on-going ability effects are checked from 1st encounter to last (this isn't in the rulebook btw as i don't think there is any application for it in the game as of now (unless mixed decks maybe but it's likely it's a mechanic that will be used in later releases and if he told you about it it means it's part of the game logic in his mind and he already designed that mechanic ))

BGA resolved the win as a top player win but mostly because 10 don't have a deck clarification like 2 Kinesis mage that specifically speficies that they also trigger the consequences of the on-going token moved to another card (while the 10 "simply triggers the on-going" token), but the fact that it made the top player the winner is mostly a coding coincidence in this case (as ithe 10 still triggered the 15 ability and added an on-going token on it, i'm not sure why the code made the top player the winner actually even if it's actually correct based on the recent errata (probably some arbitrary priority in the code lol))

He likely answered you that the player that played the first Mechanical Djinn was the winner not knowing the full context and progression of the game (therefore not knowing that the 10 wasn't even supposed to trigger its ability in phase 2 to begin with) and therefore leaked something interesting (likely a concept that will be used in future releases as i don't think there is currently a way to make Two Mechanical Djinn active at the same time as of Tide & Storm (i could be wrong though but the simple fact this isn't mentioned in the rules of Tide & Storm either makes me think it's a concept that they already designed, just not released yet ))

***and the Tide & Storm rules for end of the game are written in the exact same way as they were in the first Cardia release, with win conditions being checked in phase 2
" The game ends & you win when:
• your opponent cannot play a card (phase 1)
• an ability says you win (phase 2)
• you have 5 or more signets (phase 3)
With Soft Breeze: 6 Signets"

[rancheros]

Does playing the 1 after the 15 stop it from triggering or does it still win on here? I’m pretty sure I've seen it stop it, but I'm not sure.

I think if the card just included the word immediately, all of this wouldn't need to be clarified. Personally, I'm not a fan of this logic. I think counterplay is what makes this game fun and not offering an option other than play highest card you have is lame. I know triggering the 15 is hard, but you already have such a huge advantage when it does. I don't know why it has to be even more lopsided.

[truewired]

You're right, before the errata, it stops it because phase 2 still happens (and this is how it used to "correctly" work on BGA, and, more importantly, make sense based on the rules as written (for the reasons i explained), unlike the glitches on 10 and 11 (with the game "losing" the +5 token when the 10 copies the 11 on the same turn it's supposed to get the +5 from the previous round) and the extra signet glitch on 8 (all from deck 2))

But officially based on the most recent statement from the co-creator, a 1 wouldn't even get a chance to trigger since the win from 15 Mechanical Djinn effect would happen in phase 1 , more precisely as soon as the signet is placed on their winning card, this is when they win the encounter (and until now you wouldn't check for "you win the game" effects then (unless they're specified as "immediately") as those used to only be checked during phase 2; not phase 1)

As you said either 15 Mechanical Djinn or the "End of game" section of the rules need an errata (which would make adding "immediately" on the 15 Mechanical Djinn unnecessary then)

But yes, really not a fan of that logic either, even if it's just a change of meta in this case, adding even more risk to playing a 16 before a 15 is played and guaranting* a win for the opponent if you didn't reach 5 signets with your 16 and the opponent have a 16 to play next , that you can't counter with your own 16 because well, you played it in the previous encounter obviously lol -and nerfing 2 Kinesis mage in the process , which is arguably the best card in deck 2- (because playing 15 then 16 even without 15's ability being activated yet and then playing 2 was almost as easy assuming you had an on-going token to move around somewhere to place it on the 15, it simply needed 1 extra step compared to how 15 Mechnical Djinn is now supposed to work.
This "easy" strategy can now be countered by your opponent if they play their own 15 on your 16 if they predict it, preventing you to play the 2 next entirely as your opponent can win on phase 1 then. (again, this is a change of meta more than a "problem" per se)


Mind you i'm not a big fan of "Founder's day" location as i feel it increases luck of the draw, hence why i added specific rules to limit its presence in games in the variant for Cardia that i posted on BGG lol, but at least the way the 15 Mechanical Djinn is now supposed to work still requires more skill than Founder's day ; the latest is often a luck fest if you get a good starting hand or streak of cards but your opponent doesn't or vice-versa, while in the "regular" game the luck is averaged out as the game progresses (and wins with 15 Mechanical Djinn often happen mid or late game only (very rarely at the start of the game even if it's still possible (even more with the errata now, but likely still rare even after this change))

* (unless cards like locations or Guardians from other games or expansions are in play (some make winning with the 15 ability easier, some make it harder lol, but those aren't on BGA yet))

[rancheros]

What's the glitch on 8? The 10-11 glitch drives me crazy.

I just realized with this logic that you can't play the 14 to counter a 16 if they have the 15 triggered because phase 2 doesn't happen. So that interaction boils down to play your highest card from your hand or you'll lose. No other way around it. That's not fun or interesting. Plays like the one in the original post should be rewarded, not penalized. I don't think I'll ever follow that rule in person.

Your scenario of untriggered 15 into 16 being countered by the opponent's 15 is a nonissue to me. You can just not play the 16 and trigger the 15. There's still a good amount of risk for them to play their 15, especially if you have the 13 or 14.

Also, Deck II 2 is far and away the best card in that deck. I've been thinking of trying to rank the cards in each deck. It gets dicey once you get past the top 4 or 5. Some cards are so situational that they're hard to rank.